Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Puja]

Borthwick and Sinfield confirmed.

Wigglesworth as interim head coach at Tigers.

Phew. England are already in a better place!!


as for 'Tigers'.....

I'm willing to give Wiggy the benefit of the doubt. He's highly rated as a coach and, while I've not been thrilled about our attack under him, I'll be interested to see how things change with him in charge and full-time, rather than juggling playing and coaching.

Puja

[twitchy]

We should start a new borthwick thread.

[FKAS]

Wigglesworth has been confirmed to be heading Tigers up for the Christmas Eve game Vs Glaws. Fecking RFU wouldn't even let him stay until Christmas. Barstewards.

Sinfield has joined alongside Borthwick which is probably all that's coming with him from Tigers now. I'd imagine Borthwick will access what he at England during the 6N and then cull what he doesn't want before the summer training camps.

P/d yes not ideal at Tigers;

Head coach/attack - Wigglesworth (who's retired from playing effective immediate)
Forwards- Brett Deacon
Defence - Matt Everard
Backs - Matt Smith
Scrum - Harrison

All bases covered at least though big ask for Brett Deacon to fill Borthwick's shoes around the set piece. The charisma and leadership Sinfield brought will be lacking. At least Everard is an experienced coach to step in with the defence.

[Banquo]

Fecking RFU wouldn't even let him stay until Christmas. Barstewards.
.

Well I'm pleased at least, he can get going now, no time to lose !!

[FKAS]

Fecking RFU wouldn't even let him stay until Christmas. Barstewards.
.

Well I'm pleased at least, he can get going now, no time to lose !!

Not much he can do now other than pick which coaches are watching which games. He could have done that anyway and the coaches were still attending games to keep contact with players. The irony being Brett Hodgson the new defence coach was watching Tigers. "Look Brett, that's the bloke who's going to put you out of a job before you've even started" .

It's pretty much dead time until the new year when a better picture in the injury status of players comes through and the plans for the training week and EPS rev up.

[Mellsblue]

Borthers has landed on his bloody feet here. Probs north of £500k per annum to spend eight months of the year deciding which games to send his assistants to and walking the dog. That’s some Christmas present but he’ll be bored witless in Jan.

[p/d]

P/d yes not ideal at Tigers;

Head coach/attack - Wigglesworth (who's retired from playing effective immediate)
Forwards- Brett Deacon
Defence - Matt Everard
Backs - Matt Smith
Scrum - Harrison

Not too shabby really is it. Time for Deacon to really shine.

[FKAS]

Borthers has landed on his bloody feet here. Probs north of £500k per annum to spend eight months of the year deciding which games to send his assistants to and walking the dog. That’s some Christmas present but he’ll be bored witless in Jan.

I mean he'll be doing lots of analysis but let's face it he does that anyway and probably would if he didn't have a job. As apparently that's the way he's wired.

Scotland are a fairly settled side, he should know what's coming from them. Ditto France and Ireland, albeit those two are in ridiculous form so knowing and then being able to do something about it are different things. Wales under Gatland will be tough to gauge as Gatland always backed the old guard for Wales and he'll be struggling to do that now. Italy seem to blow hot and cold but England shouldn't be struggling in that game.

[p/d]

He should name a 23 that he would like to see........ we can then debate it and he can update after each round of games. Then walk his dog.

[Banquo]

Fecking RFU wouldn't even let him stay until Christmas. Barstewards.
.

Well I'm pleased at least, he can get going now, no time to lose !!

Not much he can do now other than pick which coaches are watching which games. He could have done that anyway and the coaches were still attending games to keep contact with players. The irony being Brett Hodgson the new defence coach was watching Tigers. "Look Brett, that's the bloke who's going to put you out of a job before you've even started" .

It's pretty much dead time until the new year when a better picture in the injury status of players comes through and the plans for the training week and EPS rev up.

I just don't agree its dead time- he can be prepping for the upcoming training camp, talking to his prospective coaching buddies, thinking through the first squad selections and starting to develop strategy and tactics. Tons and tons to do- all the detail that needs to be worked up to make the precious training camp time productive. Turning analysis into practicality takes a lot of thought and planning, and ideally you do that as a collective, even if virtually- no way he could be doing that and doing Tigers justice.

[Puja]

Fecking RFU wouldn't even let him stay until Christmas. Barstewards.
.

Well I'm pleased at least, he can get going now, no time to lose !!

Not much he can do now other than pick which coaches are watching which games. He could have done that anyway and the coaches were still attending games to keep contact with players. The irony being Brett Hodgson the new defence coach was watching Tigers. "Look Brett, that's the bloke who's going to put you out of a job before you've even started" .

It's pretty much dead time until the new year when a better picture in the injury status of players comes through and the plans for the training week and EPS rev up.

I actually prefer this clean break over an extended goodbye. If we had someone permanent that wasn't coming till Jan, then maybe, but as things stand, a few extra weeks of Borthwick and Sinfield are hardly likely to make or break our season. He's had his goodbye at Welford Road - rather than dragging it out and keeping him through a lame duck period with half his brain on England, better to let him go and concentrate fully on his new role and we go straight into trusting Wigglesworth (IWWT? Nah, I think he's gotta earn that one!) and preparing straight away for life after Borthwick.

We should start a new borthwick thread.

There is still no charge for starting new threads on the EMB.

Puja

[Banquo]

Well I'm pleased at least, he can get going now, no time to lose !!

Not much he can do now other than pick which coaches are watching which games. He could have done that anyway and the coaches were still attending games to keep contact with players. The irony being Brett Hodgson the new defence coach was watching Tigers. "Look Brett, that's the bloke who's going to put you out of a job before you've even started" .

It's pretty much dead time until the new year when a better picture in the injury status of players comes through and the plans for the training week and EPS rev up.

I actually prefer this clean break over an extended goodbye. If we had someone permanent that wasn't coming till Jan, then maybe, but as things stand, a few extra weeks of Borthwick and Sinfield are hardly likely to make or break our season. He's had his goodbye at Welford Road - rather than dragging it out and keeping him through a lame duck period with half his brain on England, better to let him go and concentrate fully on his new role and we go straight into trusting Wigglesworth (IWWT? Nah, I think he's gotta earn that one!) and preparing straight away for life after Borthwick.

We should start a new borthwick thread.

There is still no charge for starting new threads on the EMB.

Puja

aye, and as above, its really not dead time for him imo

[francoisfou]

The big questions for me will be: 1. Will he ditch the Smith /Farrell axis? And if yes… 2. Will Ford be ready for inclusion? 3. Captain? He clearly rates Genge. 4. Will the knell be tolled for the likes of Vunipolas and Youngs? We wait with bated breath!!

[fivepointer]

I'd put a bet on Ford coming back in along with one or two others. I expect a bit of Leicester bias and a few form players from the Premiership.
I dont expect apprentices, nor players brought in just to have a look at.

[FKAS]

The big questions for me will be: 1. Will he ditch the Smith /Farrell axis? And if yes… 2. Will Ford be ready for inclusion? 3. Captain? He clearly rates Genge. 4. Will the knell be tolled for the likes of Vunipolas and Youngs? We wait with bated breath!!

1. Quite possibly. He's not tended to line up Tigers with a playmaker in the midfield much. He does like to drop a flyhalf into fullback if his side are looking to score more points later in the game.

2. If he is I'd expect him to be included in the squad.

3. Don't know, he's worked with the senior England players before so may well rate Lawes or Farrell highly as captains, this one could go any which way.

4. Given the lack of fit and in form options I suspect Youngs will be maintained with. Vunipolas, well he's worked closely with them both before so depends what relationship he had with them and how highly he rates them. He gets on well with Marler so we could see a return there, as long as Joe is willing to work to Borthwick's objectives.

[Banquo]

Nice article from Sam Warburton- I knew Borthwick was a details guy, and very reassured to hear about how he implements it. Attention to the basics is imo one of the things Eddie (surprisingly) lost imo.


If I were a player in the England squad right now, I would be very happy to discover that someone of the quality of Steve Borthwick is taking over as head coach of the national team.

Borthwick was an assistant coach on the 2017 British & Irish Lions tour of New Zealand when I was captain, and I thought he was a fantastic coach on that trip. I got to know him pretty well and have enormous respect for him.

Indeed, when Charlie McEwen, who was the chief operating officer of the Lions, asked for a meeting at the end of the tour, one of the first things he asked about was my opinion of the coaches. All the other coaches on that trip — Warren Gatland, Rob Howley, Andy Farrell, Graham Rowntree and Neil Jenkins — I had worked with before and obviously rated and respected, but I stressed to Charlie how much I had enjoyed working with Borthwick.

He made an instant impression on me and the other forwards. I remember walking away from the very first session of the tour with Taulupe Faletau and Justin Tipuric and all agreeing that it was the best half an hour of lineouts we had ever done.

The intensity and detail were unbelievable, as well as the actual coaching Borthwick did. When you get to the professional level it is usually very much system-based in terms of coaching, whereas Borthwick was suddenly focusing much more on the individual and their roles. There was so much scrutiny on each of us, but in a good way, and every session you really felt as if you had improved.

I loved that. At the time, he was also quite innovative. He would record sessions and make five-minute videos for each player and send them to you with a voiceover talking you through the feedback.

I know lots of coaches who have said that they have learnt so much from Borthwick, even when working with him for a short time. I certainly used a lot of his drills when I briefly coached Wales.


Early on that Lions tour Borthwick came to me and said we needed to call a meeting with all the forwards. He led it, and I really liked the way he spoke. He talked about us being the single most brutal pack in world rugby. There was an animal pack mentality to his words. It was a simple message about who we were and what we wanted to be as a pack. Everyone bought into it, and it worked. It set the tone for the series.

Borthwick has done the hard yards in coaching, and I have never heard anyone say a bad word about his credentials. I like the fact that he has had considerable experience of international rugby — with Japan, England and the Lions — without having the responsibility of being the head man, while also having coached at Bristol Bears before taking the head coach’s job at Leicester Tigers.

It seems like he has gone up the coaching ladder perfectly. He has experienced a lot of different environments in different roles and simply seems ready for the main England job now.

He is very measured and tempered as a character, so I think temperamentally he will be fine. The amount of media attention will be a challenge but whoever takes the England job faces that. He has to do it his own way but, if I were him, I would be picking up the phone to people like Stuart Lancaster — he is already close to Eddie Jones — and asking for advice.

He knows his style and knows what sort of rugby he wants to play. Leicester kicked more than anyone when winning the Gallagher Premiership last season, with an excellent kick-chase and security under the high ball through Freddie Steward, while he brought back the old Leicester forward superiority with the likes of Jasper Wiese and Tommy Reffell.

It’s an English-style game. As I said in a previous column when stating that Warren Gatland would have been a perfect fit for England, they need a coach who wants to play the power game. Whether people like it or not, those are the type of players England have.

Of course, they have flair too and need to improve their attacking game — his choice of attack coach will be interesting to see — but Borthwick can ensure that the traditional strengths are strengths again for England, just by replicating what he has done at Leicester.

He keeps it simple. I know I might sound like a broken record but, for all the complication that some want to bring to it, rugby is still a simple game. And the best coaches recognise that and coach that way. That’s what the likes of Gats, Farrell, Shaun Edwards and Borthwick do. With international rugby you generally do not have that much preparation time, so the best international coaches have clear and simple ideas and keep their training sessions short. There are some coaches who will have a half-an-hour meeting with 20 points to think about, but the best ones generally make sure it is only ten minutes with three key things to consider.

People would be surprised how simple things are at training at international level. It is little different from what is done at lower levels, except that it is done at much greater speed and intensity.

The lineout Borthwick coached was not complex. It was not about having three different movements on every five-man lineout, going from front to middle to back and exchanging roles — it was about getting the throw accurate, making sure the lift was rapid and getting the technique spot on. His thinking was that if the quality was top-notch, then it did not matter what the defensive team were doing.

He is not too prescriptive either. To give a small example: on the Lions tour there was a lineout at the end of the second Test that we won in Wellington, which no one will remember, but I do, because I thought I had made a big mistake.

I was actually quite nervous about seeing Borthwick after the game because I thought I had messed up. I had gone against his word. To explain: we had three different set-ups on a full seven-man lineout. For two of these set-ups, if the jumper at the front was not marked, he could call “Red” and everyone knew we would go to the front because it was free ball.

But one of the set-ups didn’t have a “Red” call. We had that set-up for that last lineout in Wellington. I was at the front and was unmarked. I wanted to call “Red” but was worried that not everyone would react.

I gambled, called “Red” and thankfully we won the ball, cleared it and won the game. When I did speak to Borthwick, I said sorry, but he said: “Don’t worry. That was perfect. We want to develop decision-makers on the field and, if you see something that hasn’t been coached and you need to do it, do it.”

I know coaches who, in that instance, would have said: “Don’t do that again, it was too risky.” Of course, you need a framework, but players need to know that they can make decisions off the cuff and not be crucified if they go wrong. I got the impression that was happening a bit with England recently. They were scared to go off script.

Borthwick’s selections will be interesting. It is my understanding that he has been quite statistical in choosing players at Leicester. At BT Sport we use a company called Oval Insight for data and analysis on teams and individuals, and they also provide information to a number of teams. Apparently, in 2021, Borthwick was looking for a fly half who could execute his game plan and, of those available, Freddie Burns had the best drop-goal success rate, so they signed him to execute their kicking strategy and, lo and behold, he won them the Premiership final last season with a drop-goal. I like that shrewdness.

It was also a bold decision to pick Kevin Sinfield as his defence coach at Leicester. He had no experience as a defence coach in the union code, but Borthwick knew that, as a person, he was going to be so important and that the players would respond to him and respect him.

Sinfield’s name transcends rugby league. Everyone of my generation knows him as a legend and icon. I know I would do anything he told me to do!

Defence coaches lean heavily on the analysts and Borthwick would have known that, so to get Sinfield in was as much to create the right environment as much as anything else. That is always one of the most important, yet difficult, challenges for a head coach: to have the right men around him to foster that correct environment.

Borthwick has shown that he can do that at Leicester. Experienced players like Chris Ashton and Anthony Watson have said publicly how much they like it there, and I expect the same to happen with England now.

[fivepointer]

Excellent. Some very encouraging comments from Warburton who is a highly trusted source in my book.
Bringing in Sinfield sounds like really good business too.

[Banquo]

Excellent. Some very encouraging comments from Warburton who is a highly trusted source in my book.
Bringing in Sinfield sounds like really good business too.

Yep, lot of time for Sam, very modern in his approach.

[Oakboy]

Excellent. Some very encouraging comments from Warburton who is a highly trusted source in my book.
Bringing in Sinfield sounds like really good business too.

Yep, lot of time for Sam, very modern in his approach.

All that is encouraging. 'K.I.S.S.' counts for a lot, IMO. I thought Jones was the definition of 'smartass'. Borthwick, according to Warburton, sounds the polar opposite. No matter what players may say/have said about the relationship with Jones, I would guess that good, old-fashioned team-spirit will go up a few notches straight away. With it, I suspect will go performance.

[Banquo]

Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770
1. A selection conundrum

Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi were the preferred combination by the end of Eddie Jones' reign
The immediate priority for Borthwick is to sort out the attacking heart of the team - the fly-half, inside and outside centre.

During the autumn, we saw Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi fill those positions. It was Eddie Jones' preferred combination, but we didn't see the cutting edge we all wanted.

If Borthwick is going to use his arrival for an honest assessment of where England are, then Farrell's place is under threat.

His form over the past three years has been nowhere near where it was before that. For all the leadership in training and setting of standards off the pitch, he has not been performing as he can.

Statistically there are better inside centres in the Premiership, ranging from the very experienced to the new. Could any of them build a relationship with Smith, allowing him to become the general of this England side?

Whatever the solution, time is short. Borthwick needs to be consistent in his selection through that area to build an understanding of each other's games and the team's gameplan collectively.

2. Choose a captain

Regardless of his place in the team, I would be very surprised if Farrell continues as captain.

Relieving him of the press commitment and public scrutiny might free him up and help him find his game.

And there are plenty of candidates, well known to Borthwick, to take it on.

When Borthwick picked Ellis Genge to succeed Tom Youngs as Leicester captain, it was seen by some as a surprise choice. But it paid off handsomely with Genge leading the Tigers to the Premiership.

Borthwick has seen Maro Itoje since the start. A teenage Itoje made his Saracens debut in Borthwick's final season as a player at the club.

Courtney Lawes has been a hugely successful England captain when he has played and has a different style to Farrell. Borthwick captained him for England and coached him for the Lions.

Could it be a left-field shout like Jamie George, who Borthwick has worked with extensively at Saracens and in his role as England's line-out guru?

Having a forward as a captain - as all the above are - can be an advantage with a front-row seat for the set-piece and the breakdown.

3. Define England's attacking identity

England scored only eight tries in the 2022 Six Nations, five of which came in one game against Italy
There is a twin challenge. The team have lacked a consistent method of breaking down the opposition for a number of years now. For me, Jones was too focused on the game's global comings and goings - what other teams were doing tactically, how the laws were being interpreted elsewhere

He was always trying to be one step ahead of the trends when he decided how England were going to play.

You have to have an identity which is the core way of how you are going to play. You certainly need options around that to adapt to opposition, officials and conditions, but that bedrock has to be there.

England's best performances have come when they have taken games by the scruff of the neck, decided the tempo and run riot from the start.

The Rugby World Cup semi-final win over New Zealand in 2019 under Jones - arguably the greatest game England have ever played - came from pinning back the All Blacks and forcing them to adapt and switch styles.

The second part is England need to have the decision-makers in the team and a chain of command that can be nimble and agile enough to find another way to win.

Too often, when South Africa, France or Scotland have produced something unexpected, England have been too sluggish to change styles.

4. Reignite the players

I don't believe England are less strong or fit than the All Blacks or Springboks. I just don't believe it. But in the scrum they were shoved backwards in the final two matches of Jones' reign.

It isn't just the technical aspects of the set-piece, I think England are a tiny percentage off in mentality. Everyone is motivated to play for their country, but to get that thin margin of focus and desire that may be the difference. You need something more.

You have to wake up in the morning and get really excited about what you are doing day to day. Judging by some of the players' comments, that hasn't always been the case.

It is fundamental for Steve. He clearly has done something special at Leicester, turning a team of also-rans into champions.

If he can recreate some of that environment with England, the players there are going to get a real shot in the arm to carry them into the Rugby World Cup.

5. Reconnect the fans

This is one of the easier ones, but the connection to England's fans at Twickenham needs to be re-established. The boos at the end of the autumn defeat by the Springboks showed that relationship had been damaged.

Borthwick is not going to be a front-and-centre ringmaster, doing the television interviews and dropping buzz words. That is not his style. But he will know that England need to be doing more in exciting fans with how they play on the pitch and engaging with them off it.

It will be a real benefit to his team. Twickenham, when it is full of 80,000 fans and rocking, is a really difficult place to come and play.

At the end of the Jones era, teams fancied their chances of silencing the crowd and robbing England of momentum.

[Oakboy]

Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

Did you click on the link to what players thought? Hartley was pretty condemnatory of Jones's training camp etc.

[Banquo]

Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

Did you click on the link to what players thought? Hartley was pretty condemnatory of Jones's training camp etc.

He said he was a great coach, the toughest and best he'd worked with, camps were tough and (some) players didn't like them. No problem for me with that, its elite sport, and if you can't cut it, so be it. Its actually quite a contradictory set of views on Eddie from him; like many players, they don't like being dropped. Eddie is hardly renowned for empathy- probably because of his own background tbh.
The bigger takeaway is how players are flogged pillar to post- less games, less but better contact training, more skills, more conditioning has to happen.

[Puja]

Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

Did you click on the link to what players thought? Hartley was pretty condemnatory of Jones's training camp etc.

Jesus. I had not read that report before. Hartley's comments are allegedly supposed to be complimentary, but it sounds like abuse. "I just wanted to get through the game and win so I could have a nice week, an easier week with Eddie," especially sounds like the language of someone who's been abused.

If there's any truth to it, then I'm thrilled Eddie's gone. That is fucking awful.

Puja

[Banquo]

Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

Did you click on the link to what players thought? Hartley was pretty condemnatory of Jones's training camp etc.

Jesus. I had not read that report before. Hartley's comments are allegedly supposed to be complimentary, but it sounds like abuse. "I just wanted to get through the game and win so I could have a nice week, an easier week with Eddie," especially sounds like the language of someone who's been abused.

If there's any truth to it, then I'm thrilled Eddie's gone. That is fucking awful.

Puja

....whilst saying he's the best he has worked with?? Its his book isnt it. As above, all a bit contradictory.

[Oakboy]

Did you click on the link to what players thought? Hartley was pretty condemnatory of Jones's training camp etc.

Jesus. I had not read that report before. Hartley's comments are allegedly supposed to be complimentary, but it sounds like abuse. "I just wanted to get through the game and win so I could have a nice week, an easier week with Eddie," especially sounds like the language of someone who's been abused.

If there's any truth to it, then I'm thrilled Eddie's gone. That is fucking awful.

Puja

....whilst saying he's the best he has worked with?? Its his book isnt it. As above, all a bit contradictory.

Banquo, in any other environment it would be simple bullying. Argue any way you like about that interpretation but the crunch for me is answering the question, "Did it work?"