RugbyRebels

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:56 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 pm

Well, it isn't, though, is it. It shouldn't matter if it's working or not: abuse is abuse. Now I know there's a huge generation divide on this, but I think the performances of high-performing sports people in today's climate go to show just how important it is NOT to abuse people in the name of marginal gains.

We've jumped straight from a quote to bullying/abuse. Have no idea personally but would condemn if that line has been crossed.

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

Not sure I agree tbh, but I didn’t experience it. Most coaches beast their players-Telfer, Gatland, Edward’s spring to mind; most have very high standards, most at some point disappoint or annoy players or single them out for feedback. Personally, I don’t think trying to please your coach is a bad thing. The majority of what Hartley says is complimentary, notably that Jones gave him his career and that he’s the best coach he’s had- he seems most upset about being ditched fairly unceremoniously, but Eddie just moved on as we all said he should- maybe he could have done it better. He seems more bitter about Saints at the end tbh.
Most conscientious players would worry about the feedback after a defeat- that really is part of high performance (feedback that is).
Most of what I’ve read and heard about him is consistent- beasts them in camp when needed, high standards, direct feedback sometimes delivered in an eccentric way.

Whether that’s abuse or bullying I can’t say.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:39 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:28 am

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

If it was one account, then I might consider it hyperbole to sell a book, but combined with the "amusing" anecdotes about insults and mind games, the massive turnover of staff, the reports of how he treated Yarde responding honestly to "How are you feeling?", the reports about Malins - I'm willing to give reports of an abusive culture a lot of credence when there's a lot of independent ones.

Puja

As I reported on here a year or so back, I only know of one direct quote from the professional game. A racketball club colleague, Steve, is a relative by marriage of David Flatman. At a family gathering when rugby was discussed, Flatman said, "All the players hate Jones." I trust Steve's account to be honest and accurate. Beyond that, I could not say, but I don't know why Flatman would say it if it was not reportedly so.

I'd just say that Borthwick has a huge scope for improvement in all areas.

I know three squad players personally and they don’t hate him, nor do their other mates in the squad.

This thread has got a bit ridiculous tbh.Stom may just write it off to generational divide

Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:26 am Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

cashead wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:10 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:28 am

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

If it was one account, then I might consider it hyperbole to sell a book, but combined with the "amusing" anecdotes about insults and mind games, the massive turnover of staff, the reports of how he treated Yarde responding honestly to "How are you feeling?", the reports about Malins - I'm willing to give reports of an abusive culture a lot of credence when there's a lot of independent ones.

Puja

That's exactly it - it's not an isolated thing, and shit, he pretty much talks about coaching in a way that could be perceived as being abusive in his book. Ben Darwin, who played under Jones at the Brumbies and the Wallabies, as well as work under him as a forward coach with Suntory Sungoliath, has openly talked about Jones' coaching style. When it's people in multiple environments talking about it, then you've got to ask yourself which is more likely - Jones' coaching style perpetually skates along the line of being abuse, or a bunch of players who are currently or have been coached by him at some stage are all colluding to smear the guy.

Perceived as abusive may be the fairest way of looking at it- its all in the eye of the 'abusee'. But Darwin is generally complimentary....not smearing him, just being straight up about how it worked; and he was sacked as a coach by Jones. This article was a heads up for Eddie's chosen men.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... ix-nations

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:31 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:26 am Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

I read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:41 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:31 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:26 am Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

I read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Puja

Good point. Are previously injured players an exception? Ford, Quirke for example?

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:41 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:31 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:26 am Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

I read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Puja

TBH, never been convinced that Jones was far out in his EPS selections, but you'd think Stevie B- as p/d calls him- would be allowed a dispensation.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:41 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:31 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:26 am Whatever the rumours are about Jones’ time coaching England, it’s in the past and Borthwick brings a new beginning and for me personally, a certain degree of optimism for the forthcoming 6N. Misplaced optimism? I hope not. He and Kevin Sinfield seem to be able to motivate their players and I can’t wait to see the composition of his January training squad. As already mentioned earlier, his choice of captain is going to be crucial, and I believe he’ll go with last season’s Tigers’ captain, Genge.

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

I read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Puja

Yes, I thought I’d read something along those lines too, and hoped it wasn’t true. So who could the five new faces be? Ted Hill, Dan Cole, Rapava-Ruskin, George Ford, Hassel- Collins ?

Presumably injuries don't count towards the five EPS adjustments?

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:41 amI read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Presumably that's the EPS though - IIRC England coaches have always been allowed to select from outside the EPS for match-day squads, they just don't get the other perks, rest period, training days etc with them - so the same problem as the temporarily-France-based players.

Can be picked, but it's an uphill battle

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:51 amTBH, never been convinced that Jones was far out in his EPS selections, but you'd think Stevie B- as p/d calls him- would be allowed a dispensation.

Agreed, and (I thought) pretty widely agreed.
No-one's ever really been able to name players who EJ didn't look at, but should have, just players they wish he'd given more (or fewer) opportunities to.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:57 amPresumably injuries don't count towards the five EPS adjustments?

They never have before - which is one of the reasons the last few coaches have always kept the odd sick-note in the side (and IMO, why Eddie get's categorised for basing his game around Tuilagi - because he was either starting, or crocked and allowing a last-minute replacement for a whole international window)

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:55 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:41 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:31 am

Yep indeed- looking forward to seeing what a fresh set of eyes can achieve- whatever the regime was up to, it was a frustrating watch.

I read somewhere though that Borthwick's only allowed 5 changes to the EPS as we're mid-season. Not that I expect him to entirely tear everything up and start from scratch, but it does somewhat limit his options.

Puja

Yes, I thought I’d read something along those lines too, and hoped it wasn’t true. So who could the five new faces be? Ted Hill, Dan Cole, Rapava-Ruskin, George Ford, Hassel- Collins ?

You'd've thought Hill and Martin would be immediate names who'd be in. Given Genge is odds-on to be captain, I don't know VRR's got that much of a shot (unless Marler doesn't want to come back). You'd've thought Lawrence would be high up on the list too.

There'll be plenty of latitude with injuries, you'd've thought.

Puja

RICH LANE!!! is the obvious call up. I‘m guessing Eddie has tanked our results enough for world rugby to revoke RICH LANE!!!’s ban ‘to retain the competitive nature of test rugby’. Tbh, it’s pretty abusive for no one to mention his name.
Jones has given an interview saying he was too easy on the players in the last couple of years. Could just be cover for the fact he’d lost his way but there is some correlation with the Lawes led more laid back regime and the down turn in results, whether it’s also causation…

Puja, I reckon one of Martin or Hill will come in as an understudy to Lawes. Agree re VRR and Marler. VRR was in the 36 named for the AIs though.

Current injury question marks from the 36 named by Eddie for the AIs include Arundell, Smith, Quirke, Manu, Singleton and LCD.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:05 pm Puja, I reckon one of Martin or Hill will come in as an understudy to Lawes. Agree re VRR and Marler. VRR was in the 36 named for the AIs though.

I never know who's in and who's out. Was that 36 the current EPS? Does it include players who dropped out from injury? WTF knows.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:05 pmCurrent injury question marks from the 36 named by Eddie for the AIs include Arundell, Smith, Quirke, Manu, Singleton and LCD.

And Stuart's injured as well, is he not?

Puja

Fairly sure I read Borthers saying he was going for physicality. Martin/Hill make good options there. Lawrence, Tuilagi, Odogwu (is he still an option?).

I cannot see him dropping Farrell though, just whether it's 10/12/22.

EDIT - Then Joe C, Porter, Kelly?, Potter?

yep, although Coles went well against Argentina, he struggled v SA- mind, not alone in that. Still has a future imo, just needs to spend more time at 6 if that's where he is going to tip his hat.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:09 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:05 pm Puja, I reckon one of Martin or Hill will come in as an understudy to Lawes. Agree re VRR and Marler. VRR was in the 36 named for the AIs though.

I never know who's in and who's out. Was that 36 the current EPS? Does it include players who dropped out from injury? WTF knows.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:05 pmCurrent injury question marks from the 36 named by Eddie for the AIs include Arundell, Smith, Quirke, Manu, Singleton and LCD.

And Stuart's injured as well, is he not?

Puja

You're quite right.

Stuart -> Cole
Singleton -> ? Presumably Blamire or McGuigan
Smith -> Ford (apparently Smith's a doubt for the Scotland game and Ford should be back around the turn of the year)
Quirke -> Mitchell (as per the AI squad, Quirke out to around end of Jan)
Arundell -> Lawrence? (Got to get him into the squad surely)

Manu should be back in time (probably in time to get injured again before the 6N knowing his luck) and so to Cowan-Dickie.

Would limit some of the hefty lifting those 5 swaps will have to do. Hooker could be an issue with LCD is ruled out as Dolly is unlikely to be in consideration. McGuigan and Blamire pretty much the options left on the table. Could work out nicely McGuigan moving so that they can both get game time pre 6N.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:45 pm RICH LANE!!! is the obvious call up. I‘m guessing Eddie has tanked our results enough for world rugby to revoke RICH LANE!!!’s ban ‘to retain the competitive nature of test rugby’. Tbh, it’s pretty abusive for no one to mention his name.
Jones has given an interview saying he was too easy on the players in the last couple of years. Could just be cover for the fact he’d lost his way but there is some correlation with the Lawes led more laid back regime and the down turn in results, whether it’s also causation…

RICH LANE is old news. The new Bedford kid on the block is here

That's proper shit housery scrum half play. Love it. He's got some wheels as well.

Think the Jersey pack might have been just a touch hacked off that their impressive scrum led to a Bedford score!

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:51 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:21 am

Good / those as well.

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

what Which said; they are probably hurting with embarassment as much as anything else.

Still, they are very well paid for an England game, whether embarrassed or not. Isn't it 20K or something close. I don't know if there is a bonus system, but if so it might help to dangle the juicy carrot of a big fat winning bonus tagged on to a relatively small match fee. Basically pay by result. (Even better - hefty fines for defeats )

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:58 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:51 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

what Which said; they are probably hurting with embarassment as much as anything else.

hefty fines for defeats )

that sounds very jonesian .

The point was really that they aren't so much bruised by Jones's regime as by playing pretty poorly/losing - though its obviously intertwined.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:58 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:51 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

what Which said; they are probably hurting with embarassment as much as anything else.

Still, they are very well paid for an England game, whether embarrassed or not. Isn't it 20K or something close. I don't know if there is a bonus system, but if so it might help to dangle the juicy carrot of a big fat winning bonus tagged on to a relatively small match fee. Basically pay by result. (Even better - hefty fines for defeats )

Might reduce the chances of future coaches wanking about with "The RWC is the only thing that matters so all other results can go hang." I'm in favour.

Puja

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:56 pm Think the Jersey pack might have been just a touch hacked off that their impressive scrum led to a Bedford score!

'bout the only points Bedford got wasn't it, and they were gifted.

and when did the Gary Linekar short become fashionable again?