Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:33 am
I'd probably add Daly and Lawrence to the indifferent list but otherwise agree.
That much insight is highly cerebral thinking for Dayglo.
A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
The squandering of that position is the most damning comment on Eddie Jones and the RFU.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
The article mentions it being 2018 when we mooted talk of Farrell. At that point he was Ireland's defence coach and heir apparent, Gustard left in May and it was confirmed Farrell would lead Ireland post world cup in November. He wasn't going to switch nations unless the top job was on offer and at that point it wasn't (Jones had a contract until 2021).Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:01 pmA few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
That was an interesting read. I always felt sure that the Saracen’s players must have got wind of the crisis before the 2019 final - and that is at least partly to blame for them being emotionally off the boil in that game. The article says they didn’t know before the final. I find that difficult to believe - surely there’s a gossip tree and someone would have texted them. But I don’t know and maybe the article is right.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:01 pmA few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?
Spot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:21 pmItoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:01 pmA few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A
One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?
That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.
For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.
It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.
Itoje seems to me to be a bright bloke with lots of character. So, why does he accept being used badly? And, why, in general terms is he not more influential? I completely agree about his status as our most important player. If he were to be injured/unavailable his absence would be mega-significant - quite a contrast to OF or BV, for example.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:34 pmSpot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:21 pmItoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:01 pm
A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.
One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?
That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.
For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.
It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.
What would you suggest he does?Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:42 pmSo, why does he accept being used badly?Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:34 pmSpot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.Stom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:21 pm
Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.
That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.
For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.
It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.
I thought it was accepted that it was due to a World Rugby conspiracy to avoid an England win at the World Cup being a forgone conclusion, obvs.
I presumed that RICH LANE!!! Wasn't allowed to play because that sort of talent on the international stage would make a mockery of the world cup competition.
The subject of autobiographies don't choose what is serialised and the papers understandably choose the most sensational pieces. "X is rubbish" is always more newsworthy than "a load of people did a difficult job moderately well"Puja wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:55 pm Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.
Puja
I haven’t read any of the recent stuff, but saw him interviewed on the offload podcast last year and thought he seemed very measured and thoughtful in the way he talked about the game.Puja wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:55 pm Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.
Puja
A truly weird article. Covid, and the financial issues it caused, did not only happen to England or even mainly to England. and there's a distinct lack of "why" in the explanation.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:34 pm Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A