RugbyRebels

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:59 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

stepsider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:01 am Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:59 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:11 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:01 am Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:03 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:56 pm We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:33 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:03 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:00 pm

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

Played with the same experienced centre at 12 in every game (a centre who has played 10 and who played 12 with Smith in the AIs). Considering the lack of 12 options we had available at the time it was about the best we had.

Randall was selected and at the time talked up as better suiting Smith's style and them knowing each other well from age grade rugby.

At outside centre he had his clubmate for three of the five games and an experienced 13 and Lion for the others. I'm not a big fan of Daly at 13 but it gave Smith more experience to draw on.

The two MOTM games were Italy and Scotland weren't they? Italy barely turned up but the game against Scotland was one of his better performances and gave us some hope he'd turn those flashes of class into something more regular. The good from Scotland was outweighed by the shocking performance Vs France in the finale to the 6N. A shame as at that point the pack was doing alright seemingly galvanised by the 14 man showing Vs Ireland and Genge carrying like an 8 from the backfield (poor bugger will be glad that's not need repeated).

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:31 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:11 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:01 am Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

I was not a fan of Ford for years but now agree with everything you say. As ever, the snag is that, so far, none of England coaching crew of the last 8 years+ concur. The only very minor hope is that Ford's performances for SB at Leicester might count.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:45 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:31 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:11 am

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

I was not a fan of Ford for years but now agree with everything you say. As ever, the snag is that, so far, none of England coaching crew of the last 8 years+ concur. The only very minor hope is that Ford's performances for SB at Leicester might count.

There does seem to be a pattern on here of the best option generally being the one who has played least or is the furthest from memory. Ford is an incredible player, but his KADAB stats would surely have been off the charts at points in his recent England career, which I believe was your main gripe with him. It does leave you asking when was anybody last consistently good at 10 for England. I'd guess it was 2019 Ford when the pack got their shit together.

It's so hard to judge many of these performances with such muddled tactics, coaching and selection. I do think Ford is the best choice and the most rounded option if he can get back to where he was last season and fits with what the team are trying to do. We brought in the Quins midfield and attack coach, appeared to adopt the Quins kicking strategy and then ditched the fly-half for the Saracens one, who then did some very strange stuff. I guess we just have to stay patient as we're only 2 games in, but it's hard not to feel like this is a continuation from Jones.

I'd hope Borthwick's familiarity with Ford could make this less of a mess if he comes back in though. He's generally a very good kicker but seemed completely stuck in a rut under Jones after the world cup. Saying he can do everything Smith can with the ball is way OTT, but he's a good running threat in his own right, a leader and obviously his distribution is incredible.

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:58 pm I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:05 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:58 pm I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:59 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:05 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:58 pm I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

stepsider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:56 pm If so, tough on Smith, but that's showbiz.

stepsider wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:07 pm Assumed so, but it's still tough. Was hoping that we could get him on board before Scotland enlist him, but maybe not if he's about to be dumped from the squad.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:05 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:58 pm I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:45 pm Someone showed me this and it hurt me, so now I am hurting all of you with it:

https://fb.watch/iUEMbxUTLw/

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:45 pm Someone showed me this and it hurt me, so now I am hurting all of you with it:

https://fb.watch/iUEMbxUTLw/

Puja