RugbyRebels

Molitor5901 wrote:Former swimming Olympic silver medalist and hawt babe Sharron Davies defies interwebz LGBTQSTUV1234....∞ hate mob:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... _share-top

'When you speak up, you're called a hater. The thing that woke me up a little more after the IOC changed the rules about trans women competing against women was all the flack poor Martina got.'

She means tennis player Martina Navratilova, who was one of the first global sportswomen to come out as lesbian.

She is an honoured champion of gay rights but was roundly turned upon when she, like Sharron, said earlier this year that allowing trans women to compete in women's sport was 'unfair'.

Accusations of transphobia followed and she was chucked off the LGBTQ athlete advocacy group's advisory board. She has since apologised for using the term 'cheating' and called for a debate based 'not on feeling or emotion but science.'

'To be a sportswoman, you work so hard for so many years,' says Sharron. 'I worked six hours a day for six days a week with no holidays from the age of eight.

'I just wanted to win a race. To have to turn round and see someone in the lane next to me who's gone, 'Do you know what, I identify as a woman.

'OK, so I have at least a 10 per cent advantage over you because of my biology, but you're going to have to deal with it' is something I'd have a massive problem with.'

She ticks off on her fingers examples of the 'unfairnesses'.

Take the New Zealand power-lifter who was 'nothing really special' as a man, but retired, transitioned, returned to compete as a trans woman and outlifted the next female opponent by 19kg.

Or in the 17 American states where boys self-identify as girls and go from being 'pretty average' male athletes to the 'very best' female athletes, thus securing lucrative scholarships to some of the most sought-after American sport colleges.

'They've not taken a hormone. They've not had surgery,' says Sharron. 'All they've done is self-identify, and they're wiping the floor with all the girls.'

Good for her and good for you. Clearly you know a lot on the subject and are really exciting individuals going against the mainstream. Well done.

Puja

A hate group is "the mainstream" now???

morepork wrote:While unwilling to sanction Cas’s damn the torpedoes debating style, I do feel that the aim of debate should be to illuminate the facts, not change opinion. The former is more important than the latter in the greater scheme of things.

Not sure I'd agree with that. If you're just looking to illuminate facts, you may as well have a blog. A debate should be about both teaching and learning from your opponent(s) and changing minds, while rare, is absolutely the goal for me. Or, sometimes, changing my own mind if I'm convinced by someone else's argument.

Of course, there are some arguments where your opponent is never going to learn or educate cause they have no interest in it. Thankfully sometimes they advertise that fact right off the bat and you can move on straight away (sardonic comment optional).

Puja

It's rather odd to point out that women's athletics records haven't been obliterated by trans athletes when (a) the numbers of trans people currently entering sport are small for various social reasons, but are unlikely to remain so; and (b) we absolutely know that a fair few of the women's records, and certainly the record in Semenya's event, are held by women who were part of extensive doping programmes that often relied on massive amounts of testosterone.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:It's rather odd to point out that women's athletics records haven't been obliterated by trans athletes when (a) the numbers of trans people currently entering sport are small for various social reasons, but are unlikely to remain so; and (b) we absolutely know that a fair few of the women's records, and certainly the record in Semenya's event, are held by women who were part of extensive doping programmes that often relied on massive amounts of testosterone.

B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

Puja wrote:
B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

MTF transgenders have invariably undergone male puberty before they transition. Post puberty testosterone has practically zero influence on skeletal structure, height, muscle fibers etc.

In other words MTF transgenders who have undergone puberty already possess the physical characteristics of a man and therefore would have a physical advantage over females in track and field events.

Molitor5901 wrote:

Puja wrote:
B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

MTF transgenders have invariably undergone male puberty before they transition. Post puberty testosterone has practically zero influence on skeletal structure, height, muscle fibers etc.

In other words MTF transgenders who have undergone puberty already possess the physical characteristics of a man and therefore would have a physical advantage over females in track and field events.

If you would care to read the rest of the thread and the links shared and discussed, it's scientifically established that after 12 months on anti-androgens, muscle fibres, bone density, red blood cell count, etc, go to the same level as a baseline female (and below the level of most top-level athletes). Yes, there would still be the advantages from skeletal structure, height, and organ size, but a) there are lots of tall and broad cis-women, and b) carrying that skeleton around without the muscles, red blood cells, and hormones that originally came with it is likely more of a deficit than an advantage.

As I said, already very well discussed earlier in the thread.

Puja

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:While unwilling to sanction Cas’s damn the torpedoes debating style, I do feel that the aim of debate should be to illuminate the facts, not change opinion. The former is more important than the latter in the greater scheme of things.

Not sure I'd agree with that. If you're just looking to illuminate facts, you may as well have a blog. A debate should be about both teaching and learning from your opponent(s) and changing minds, while rare, is absolutely the goal for me. Or, sometimes, changing my own mind if I'm convinced by someone else's argument.

Of course, there are some arguments where your opponent is never going to learn or educate cause they have no interest in it. Thankfully sometimes they advertise that fact right off the bat and you can move on straight away (sardonic comment optional).

Puja

Puja, You have always seemed fair to me and actually "interested" in viewpoints that differ from your own. You seem to read a post in its entirety, suspending judgement, and inquiring about information or the other person's thoughts. That is the difference between dialogue or discussion and debate. I respect that 100%. Debate is combative and seeks to be victorious or better than the other person. I can honestly say I have OFTEN learned things from an opposing view or opinion than my own - right here on this board at times. Without dialogue, there can be no meaningful conversation.

Puja wrote:
If you would care to read the rest of the thread and the links shared and discussed, it's scientifically established that after 12 months on anti-androgens, muscle fibres, bone density, red blood cell count, etc, go to the same level as a baseline female (and below the level of most top-level athletes). Yes, there would still be the advantages from skeletal structure, height, and organ size, but a) there are lots of tall and broad cis-women, and b) carrying that skeleton around without the muscles, red blood cells, and hormones that originally came with it is likely more of a deficit than an advantage.

As I said, already very well discussed earlier in the thread.

Puja

If it were discussed comprehensively, you would have at least broached the role that puberty plays creating a distinction between males and females; particularly its influence in the formation of limbs, muscles, the skeleton etc.

You do agree that there is a sharp morphological distinction distinction between males and females after puberty and you do agree that it is a factor in making boys stronger than girls?

Then you must agree that men who have undergone puberty and subsequently decide to transition to female already have the physical benefits that male puberty confers?

there are lots of tall and broad cis-women

How many is "lots"? I assume you mean "tall and broad" in the sense that they are physically equal to the average male???

What percentage of the female population meet these criteria?

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:It's rather odd to point out that women's athletics records haven't been obliterated by trans athletes when (a) the numbers of trans people currently entering sport are small for various social reasons, but are unlikely to remain so; and (b) we absolutely know that a fair few of the women's records, and certainly the record in Semenya's event, are held by women who were part of extensive doping programmes that often relied on massive amounts of testosterone.

B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

That doesn't make b irrelevant at all. Your argument appears to be "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, therefore transwomen have no advantage over cis women".

Is Semenya intersex or trans? I am not clear on that.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

Coco wrote:Is Semenya intersex or trans? I am not clear on that.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

intersex.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Coco wrote:Is Semenya intersex or trans? I am not clear on that.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

intersex.

Thank you, Eugene.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:It's rather odd to point out that women's athletics records haven't been obliterated by trans athletes when (a) the numbers of trans people currently entering sport are small for various social reasons, but are unlikely to remain so; and (b) we absolutely know that a fair few of the women's records, and certainly the record in Semenya's event, are held by women who were part of extensive doping programmes that often relied on massive amounts of testosterone.

B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

That doesn't make b irrelevant at all. Your argument appears to be "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, therefore transwomen have no advantage over cis women".

My argument's more "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, so what does that have to do with trans women?"

Puja

Coco wrote:Is Semenya intersex or trans? I am not clear on that.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

I will note that the author has taken the initial deduction of "Semenya must have some XY chromosomes otherwise these rules wouldn't apply to her," and then leapt a long way to conclusions, bouncing off completely unsubstantiated rumours about her sex organs and genitalia. It is possible that her chromosomes are fully XY, but it's also possible that she's mosaic and has only the smallest smattering of XY with the majority being XX. Or somewhere in the middle.

It's why I'm reluctant to say I agree one way or another - there's too little information in the public domain to have an informed opinion (which is as it should be when we're talking about someone's private information) and so anyone being definitive is acting off bending speculation to what they already believe should be true.

Puja

cashead wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Coco wrote:Is Semenya intersex or trans? I am not clear on that.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

intersex.

And what needs to be remembered is that people who are intersex are far more common than you would imagine. The term "intersex" is actually a fairly broad category, with no uniform difference in appearance. There are probably people out there who have no idea that they are intersex like in the case of Dutee Chand.

According to a study done by Brown University back in 2000, the number was more or less estimated to be around 1.7%, which is roughly on par with people with red hair.

"Oh cool yeah, that was already stated in that link I posted"

morepork wrote:Wealth inequality
Climate change
Perpetual war and crimes against humanity
Access to effective medicine
A handful of female athletes that can run faster than other females


Guess which one sets the voters off the most?


People can be such cunts.

I suspect that's directed as much at the posters here on the politics thread as anywhere else, 'tis a fair point. Though I'll again note female genitalia is being equated to a pejorative, which always seems odd to me when people also bang on about equality

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:
B seems largely irrelevant considering that the rules for trans women in sport require them to have T levels below that which some cis women can have. So the fact that testosterone can have a massive effect on sporting performance in certain events doesn't seem particularly germane to a group of people who are taking drugs that inhibit their body's ability to produce and use it.

Puja

That doesn't make b irrelevant at all. Your argument appears to be "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, therefore transwomen have no advantage over cis women".

My argument's more "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, so what does that have to do with trans women?"

Puja

Nothing unless the point is made, as it sort of is here and elsewhere, that the absence of women's records being smashed by men identifying as female shows there's no threat to women's sport

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: That doesn't make b irrelevant at all. Your argument appears to be "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, therefore transwomen have no advantage over cis women".

My argument's more "Records that have proved unreachable by cis women without vast amounts of illegal PEDs are also unreachable by transwomen, so what does that have to do with trans women?"

Puja

Nothing unless the point is made, as it sort of is here and elsewhere, that the absence of women's records being smashed by men identifying as female shows there's no threat to women's sport

I'm fine with the "not many trans people in sport so far" argument against that, and it is an excellent point, well made. I'm just baffled about how high testosterone levels taking records means... actually, mid-typing, I went back to look at Eugene's original point and I have misread his post entirely. No wonder I'm confused.

Sorry all. Carry on.

Puja

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:It's rather odd to point out that women's athletics records haven't been obliterated by trans athletes when (a) the numbers of trans people currently entering sport are small for various social reasons, but are unlikely to remain so; and (b) we absolutely know that a fair few of the women's records, and certainly the record in Semenya's event, are held by women who were part of extensive doping programmes that often relied on massive amounts of testosterone.

You still need relevant end point data if you want to go down the hypothesis-driven route. There simply isn't enough data.

Digby wrote:

morepork wrote:Wealth inequality
Climate change
Perpetual war and crimes against humanity
Access to effective medicine
A handful of female athletes that can run faster than other females


Guess which one sets the voters off the most?


People can be such cunts.

I suspect that's directed as much at the posters here on the politics thread as anywhere else, 'tis a fair point. Though I'll again note female genitalia is being equated to a pejorative, which always seems odd to me when people also bang on about equality

Wankers?

Puja wrote:

Molitor5901 wrote:Former swimming Olympic silver medalist and hawt babe Sharron Davies defies interwebz LGBTQSTUV1234....∞ hate mob:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... _share-top

'When you speak up, you're called a hater. The thing that woke me up a little more after the IOC changed the rules about trans women competing against women was all the flack poor Martina got.'

She means tennis player Martina Navratilova, who was one of the first global sportswomen to come out as lesbian.

She is an honoured champion of gay rights but was roundly turned upon when she, like Sharron, said earlier this year that allowing trans women to compete in women's sport was 'unfair'.

Accusations of transphobia followed and she was chucked off the LGBTQ athlete advocacy group's advisory board. She has since apologised for using the term 'cheating' and called for a debate based 'not on feeling or emotion but science.'

'To be a sportswoman, you work so hard for so many years,' says Sharron. 'I worked six hours a day for six days a week with no holidays from the age of eight.

'I just wanted to win a race. To have to turn round and see someone in the lane next to me who's gone, 'Do you know what, I identify as a woman.

'OK, so I have at least a 10 per cent advantage over you because of my biology, but you're going to have to deal with it' is something I'd have a massive problem with.'

She ticks off on her fingers examples of the 'unfairnesses'.

Take the New Zealand power-lifter who was 'nothing really special' as a man, but retired, transitioned, returned to compete as a trans woman and outlifted the next female opponent by 19kg.

Or in the 17 American states where boys self-identify as girls and go from being 'pretty average' male athletes to the 'very best' female athletes, thus securing lucrative scholarships to some of the most sought-after American sport colleges.

'They've not taken a hormone. They've not had surgery,' says Sharron. 'All they've done is self-identify, and they're wiping the floor with all the girls.'

Good for her and good for you. Clearly you know a lot on the subject and are really exciting individuals going against the mainstream. Well done.

Puja

Fucking snowflakes whining via the Daily Mail. Excellent.

morepork wrote:That's where the real data lies....out in the field, so to speak. Sample sizes in current studies are either too small or have not had appropriate methodology applied. Simply, there isn't enough data out there. The muscle memory thing should be approached with caution as it is not a valid driver of evolution.

This one is quite big.

morepork wrote:

Puja wrote:

Molitor5901 wrote:Former swimming Olympic silver medalist and hawt babe Sharron Davies defies interwebz LGBTQSTUV1234....∞ hate mob:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... _share-top

'When you speak up, you're called a hater. The thing that woke me up a little more after the IOC changed the rules about trans women competing against women was all the flack poor Martina got.'

She means tennis player Martina Navratilova, who was one of the first global sportswomen to come out as lesbian.

She is an honoured champion of gay rights but was roundly turned upon when she, like Sharron, said earlier this year that allowing trans women to compete in women's sport was 'unfair'.

Accusations of transphobia followed and she was chucked off the LGBTQ athlete advocacy group's advisory board. She has since apologised for using the term 'cheating' and called for a debate based 'not on feeling or emotion but science.'

'To be a sportswoman, you work so hard for so many years,' says Sharron. 'I worked six hours a day for six days a week with no holidays from the age of eight.

'I just wanted to win a race. To have to turn round and see someone in the lane next to me who's gone, 'Do you know what, I identify as a woman.

'OK, so I have at least a 10 per cent advantage over you because of my biology, but you're going to have to deal with it' is something I'd have a massive problem with.'

She ticks off on her fingers examples of the 'unfairnesses'.

Take the New Zealand power-lifter who was 'nothing really special' as a man, but retired, transitioned, returned to compete as a trans woman and outlifted the next female opponent by 19kg.

Or in the 17 American states where boys self-identify as girls and go from being 'pretty average' male athletes to the 'very best' female athletes, thus securing lucrative scholarships to some of the most sought-after American sport colleges.

'They've not taken a hormone. They've not had surgery,' says Sharron. 'All they've done is self-identify, and they're wiping the floor with all the girls.'

Good for her and good for you. Clearly you know a lot on the subject and are really exciting individuals going against the mainstream. Well done.

Puja

Fucking snowflakes whining via the Daily Mail. Excellent.

How strange that you were talking earlier about discussing this issue in an open and rational manner. Now you're dismissing a former Olympic medallist's concerns about transgenders in female sports as "whining"?

Would you care to address Ms Davie's points?