RugbyRebels

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:52 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:34 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:29 pm Sounds like Watson in for OHC and Lawes in for Earl.

Can't say I'm overly excited by that but they've both been fantastic in the past. Isiekwe's spot is still just a bit of a mystery.

BCurry in for Earl and Lawes for Isiekwe in the end.

I'll take that. I'm glad not Lawes straight back in at 6 and very happy for BCurry to get another shot - hopefully he gets a decent number of minutes. Arundell on the bench is decent as well - he's still so young and so inexperienced, that I'm glad we're not just tossing him in at the deep end when we do have a quality option like Watson available.

Puja

How's he going to get any meaningful experience? Ten minutes off the bench at the fag end of an international isn't really much use to his development. To be honest, I'd rather he just stay at LI & play full matches.

In fairness, he did get 20 minutes last week (which I'd want for a player coming back from a long-term injury anyway), we just didn't play well in those 20 mins.

I'm happy with him training with the international side and learning from the likes of Watson and Nick Evans. And, if we actually use him this week, he'll learn more from 20 minutes against Wales than he will from playing 80 mins in a depleted Premiership game. He'll have plenty of Prem games - there's only a vanishing small number of international experiences before the RWC.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:14 pm

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:52 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:34 pm

BCurry in for Earl and Lawes for Isiekwe in the end.

I'll take that. I'm glad not Lawes straight back in at 6 and very happy for BCurry to get another shot - hopefully he gets a decent number of minutes. Arundell on the bench is decent as well - he's still so young and so inexperienced, that I'm glad we're not just tossing him in at the deep end when we do have a quality option like Watson available.

Puja

How's he going to get any meaningful experience? Ten minutes off the bench at the fag end of an international isn't really much use to his development. To be honest, I'd rather he just stay at LI & play full matches.

In fairness, he did get 20 minutes last week (which I'd want for a player coming back from a long-term injury anyway), we just didn't play well in those 20 mins.

I'm happy with him training with the international side and learning from the likes of Watson and Nick Evans. And, if we actually use him this week, he'll learn more from 20 minutes against Wales than he will from playing 80 mins in a depleted Premiership game. He'll have plenty of Prem games - there's only a vanishing small number of international experiences before the RWC.

Puja

Keeping him in the squad & on the bench robs him of a lot more than "80 mins in a depleted Premiership game". He needs proper game time & he's obviously not going to get it in internationals.

While I'm always optimistic about England's chances, I have to say, I'm really not sold on Malins' ability to defend against pace and/or power. I fear he's going to be a target for LRZ, who will run over and around him all day long. Not helped by Slade sometimes making stupid decisions, Lawrence playing at 12, which isn't his primary position, and captain kamikaze at 10...

On the bright side, that bench is magnificent. Very attacking with Lawes the lock replacement, Curry, Mitchell, Smith, and Arundell all players you'd see making an impact. I think Borthwick's England team is starting to take shape, I just hope he has something planned to ditch Farrell...

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:32 pmKeeping him in the squad & on the bench robs him of a lot more than "80 mins in a depleted Premiership game". He needs proper game time & he's obviously not going to get it in internationals.

Like what?

He'll spend the week training with internationals, rubbing shoulders with heroes, and getting a variety of more one-on-one coaching; then on Saturday, he'll get 10-15 minutes of international rugby.

Had he stayed with LIrish, he'd have spent the week training with the same-old same-old, rubbing shoulders with the same-old same-old and getting the same-old coaching, sharing time with a greater number of players; then on Saturday he'd get 65-80 minutes playing premiership rugby.


If we want him to be ready for France'23, then he's got 3 more matches worth of meaningful international experience available; in addition to another 4(?) Prem matches. Alternatively, he can 6 weeks of the latter.

If any player gets more out of the latter than the former, then they're never going to make it as a pro (absent stratospheric levels of talent ala Caucaunibuca, who can make 50+ capped internationals look like schoolboys without any actual application)

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 pm While I'm always optimistic about England's chances, I have to say, I'm really not sold on Malins' ability to defend against pace and/or power. I fear he's going to be a target for LRZ, who will run over and around him all day long. Not helped by Slade sometimes making stupid decisions, Lawrence playing at 12, which isn't his primary position, and captain kamikaze at 10...

On the bright side, that bench is magnificent. Very attacking with Lawes the lock replacement, Curry, Mitchell, Smith, and Arundell all players you'd see making an impact. I think Borthwick's England team is starting to take shape, I just hope he has something planned to ditch Farrell...

Agree with all that. In particular about Malins, who I'm fairly convinced isn't an international winger, long term. Talented player who I really enjoy watching, but he's not a winger and I think there's definitely a risk there defensively.

twitchy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:59 pm

Someone's been reading the minute-by-minute!

Puja

We can't have it both ways and neither can Arundel. Watson and Malins to start for experience/defensive solidity with Arundel to give real impact from the bench. OR, Arundel to start, possibly get a bit exposed and lose his squad place - against getting 20 minutes against a tiring side to keep making progress. I thought SB would start him, simply because he dumped Watson from the last 23, apparently creating a pecking order. On reflection, I'm pleased with the way he has gone about it from all points of view.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:38 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:59 pm

Someone's been reading the minute-by-minute!

Puja

Justice for OHC, who if anything touched the ball less. Would he have been canned anyway?

(not that I think either Malins or OHC should be 1st choice wings)

Malins & defensive solidity? Seriously?

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:52 pm Malins & defensive solidity? Seriously?

According to SB, one presumes. I think Malins's place is at risk. I'd pick Watson and Daly as first choice wings still. Malins is getting a run of games to prove he deserves the shirt and I'd not argue against that. It's the same for Dombrandt which I agree with as a selection method even though I'd have picked Tom Willis or Simmonds ahead of him.

I think SB has to be cut some slack with these either/or choices. He's having to try to win tough matches AND build for the RWC in just a few games on the back of three years of mis-management, after all.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 pm I'd have picked Tom Watson

I’m surprised he made the cut at his age.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:50 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:38 pm

twitchy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:59 pm

Someone's been reading the minute-by-minute!

Puja

Justice for OHC, who if anything touched the ball less. Would he have been canned anyway?

(not that I think either Malins or OHC should be 1st choice wings)

If there's one thing I learned from the m-b-m, it's that OHC actually saw the ball more than everyone thought - he just didn't do much with it.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:47 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:50 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:38 pm

Someone's been reading the minute-by-minute!

Puja

Justice for OHC, who if anything touched the ball less. Would he have been canned anyway?

(not that I think either Malins or OHC should be 1st choice wings)

If there's one thing I learned from the m-b-m, it's that OHC actually saw the ball more than everyone thought - he just didn't do much with it.

Puja

Fair enough- OHC touched it 11 times in 2 games (3 v Italy 8 v Scotland). Pro rata, Arundell's one touch v Italy was about right

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:54 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:47 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:50 pm

Justice for OHC, who if anything touched the ball less. Would he have been canned anyway?

(not that I think either Malins or OHC should be 1st choice wings)

If there's one thing I learned from the m-b-m, it's that OHC actually saw the ball more than everyone thought - he just didn't do much with it.

Puja

Fair enough- OHC touched it 11 times in 2 games (3 v Italy 8 v Scotland). Pro rata, Arundell's one touch v Italy was about right

OHC only played 115 minutes over those games though, so Arundell is technically owed 2.391 touches for his 25 mins against Italy.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:58 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:54 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:47 pm

If there's one thing I learned from the m-b-m, it's that OHC actually saw the ball more than everyone thought - he just didn't do much with it.

Puja

Fair enough- OHC touched it 11 times in 2 games (3 v Italy 8 v Scotland). Pro rata, Arundell's one touch v Italy was about right

OHC only played 115 minutes over those games though, so Arundell is technically owed 2.391 touches for his 25 mins against Italy.

Puja

(1.33 in the Italy game tho ) either way, bit pointless being a running winger at the moment

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:43 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 pm I'd have picked Tom Watson

I’m surprised he made the cut at his age.

Oops, corrected!

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:59 pm . . . . bit pointless being a running winger at the moment

Do you think Malins/grubber kicks is temporary?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:59 pm . . . . bit pointless being a running winger at the moment

Do you think Malins/grubber kicks is temporary?

I'd hope so as its been a soul destroying tactic to watch, esp done so often and badly.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 pm

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:52 pm Malins & defensive solidity? Seriously?

According to SB, one presumes. I think Malins's place is at risk. I'd pick Watson and Daly as first choice wings still. Malins is getting a run of games to prove he deserves the shirt and I'd not argue against that. It's the same for Dombrandt which I agree with as a selection method even though I'd have picked Tom Willis or Simmonds ahead of him.

I think SB has to be cut some slack with these either/or choices. He's having to try to win tough matches AND build for the RWC in just a few games on the back of three years of mis-management, after all.

Malins has played 16 tests now, quite a few of them as a starter I believe - he's pretty much a known quantity. His performances haven't been stellar frankly.

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 pm

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:52 pm Malins & defensive solidity? Seriously?

According to SB, one presumes. I think Malins's place is at risk. I'd pick Watson and Daly as first choice wings still. Malins is getting a run of games to prove he deserves the shirt and I'd not argue against that. It's the same for Dombrandt which I agree with as a selection method even though I'd have picked Tom Willis or Simmonds ahead of him.

I think SB has to be cut some slack with these either/or choices. He's having to try to win tough matches AND build for the RWC in just a few games on the back of three years of mis-management, after all.

Malins has played 16 tests now, quite a few of them as a starter I believe - he's pretty much a known quantity. His performances haven't been stellar frankly.

He just looks out of position tbh. I was at the Wales game last year, and he just looked like he didn't want to be there.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:48 pm

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 pm

According to SB, one presumes. I think Malins's place is at risk. I'd pick Watson and Daly as first choice wings still. Malins is getting a run of games to prove he deserves the shirt and I'd not argue against that. It's the same for Dombrandt which I agree with as a selection method even though I'd have picked Tom Willis or Simmonds ahead of him.

I think SB has to be cut some slack with these either/or choices. He's having to try to win tough matches AND build for the RWC in just a few games on the back of three years of mis-management, after all.

Malins has played 16 tests now, quite a few of them as a starter I believe - he's pretty much a known quantity. His performances haven't been stellar frankly.

He just looks out of position tbh. I was at the Wales game last year, and he just looked like he didn't want to be there.

I think he knows that as he’s said he’s moving to Bristol to play 15 (no confirmation as to whether RICH LANE!!! is moving to Toulouse or Leinster so Malins can get a look in) which makes the selection of him at 14 for England all the more baffling.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:15 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:48 pm

rjjb wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:40 pm

Malins has played 16 tests now, quite a few of them as a starter I believe - he's pretty much a known quantity. His performances haven't been stellar frankly.

He just looks out of position tbh. I was at the Wales game last year, and he just looked like he didn't want to be there.

I think he knows that as he’s said he’s moving to Bristol to play 15 (no confirmation as to whether RICH LANE!!! is moving to Toulouse or Leinster so Malins can get a look in) which makes the selection of him at 14 for England all the more baffling.

He was the top try scorer in the Prem last year and is fairly high up this year, from playing wing. It's not a particularly wild decision if we're wanting to pick on form.

Puja

Didn't know much about new Welsh centre, Grady, so I googled him.
6"5" and 17.5 st.
Jamie Roberts and then some.