Great expectations, Saturday?

[UKHamlet]

That ref...

[Son of Mathonwy]

Stats:

WALES Tackles Missed, Tackles, Passes, Runs, Metres Run, Penalties
L WilliamsFB 1 0 8 14 77 0
J AdamsW 2 0 3 2 19 0
J RobertsC 6 2 1 7 52 0
N TompkinsC 3 2 8 5 6 0
T RogersW 3 1 0 6 37 1
O WilliamsFH 5 1 10 3 10 0
T WilliamsSH 7 1 39 5 57 0
G ThomasP 1 1 1 3 5 1
D LakeH 3 0 1 1 0 0
T FrancisP 8 0 0 1 1 1
R DaviesL 13 1 0 5 0 0
A BeardL 10 3 1 1 0 1
D LydiateFL 17 0 2 3 0 2
T ReffellFL 17 1 2 8 9 1
T PlumtreeN8 5 1 0 3 4 2
S ParryR 7 0 0 3 31 0
K MathiasR 9 1 0 1 0 1
D LewisR 6 0 0 3 0 1
C TshiunzaR 3 1 1 1 4 0
T BashamR 2 0 1 5 32 0
G DaviesR 0 0 4 2 6 0
D BiggarR 4 2 7 0 0 0
K WilliamsR 0 0 1 4 8 1

Lydiate and Reffell were the big tacklers - 17 made, 0 missed and 17 made, 1 missed respectively. Davies good with 13 and 1, Beard not so good 10 and 3. Plumtree useless with 5 and 1 (and only 4m made, 2 penalties against). Both centres missed a couple but at least Roberts made 52m. Tompkins looked good but his stats are poor - 3 tackles, 2 missed, 6m made.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=289234

[Puja]

I don't jump to a ref's defence a lot but they can't win at scrum time. If they go all one way, they've obviously been conned by the side who cheats best. If they spread the sanctions around, then they're "guessing".

I thought it was notable that we actually had some completed scrums this week and the front rows were not just allowed to fuck about to their hearts' content. While I would've preferred that it hadn't happened to an England player, it was a thing of beauty for a ref to not only say, "I'm bored with you lot, next one that cheats gets a yellow," but then follow through after the props have had their regulation one good scrum and then gone back to cheating in the expectation that he's now forgotten about it.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I actually quite like ‘that ref’. Whenever I’ve seen him he’s been pretty good and even-handed.

[Sandydragon]

Stats:

WALES Tackles Missed, Tackles, Passes, Runs, Metres Run, Penalties
L WilliamsFB 1 0 8 14 77 0
J AdamsW 2 0 3 2 19 0
J RobertsC 6 2 1 7 52 0
N TompkinsC 3 2 8 5 6 0
T RogersW 3 1 0 6 37 1
O WilliamsFH 5 1 10 3 10 0
T WilliamsSH 7 1 39 5 57 0
G ThomasP 1 1 1 3 5 1
D LakeH 3 0 1 1 0 0
T FrancisP 8 0 0 1 1 1
R DaviesL 13 1 0 5 0 0
A BeardL 10 3 1 1 0 1
D LydiateFL 17 0 2 3 0 2
T ReffellFL 17 1 2 8 9 1
T PlumtreeN8 5 1 0 3 4 2
S ParryR 7 0 0 3 31 0
K MathiasR 9 1 0 1 0 1
D LewisR 6 0 0 3 0 1
C TshiunzaR 3 1 1 1 4 0
T BashamR 2 0 1 5 32 0
G DaviesR 0 0 4 2 6 0
D BiggarR 4 2 7 0 0 0
K WilliamsR 0 0 1 4 8 1

Lydiate and Reffell were the big tacklers - 17 made, 0 missed and 17 made, 1 missed respectively. Davies good with 13 and 1, Beard not so good 10 and 3. Plumtree useless with 5 and 1 (and only 4m made, 2 penalties against). Both centres missed a couple but at least Roberts made 52m. Tompkins looked good but his stats are poor - 3 tackles, 2 missed, 6m made.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=289234

So, who actually put their hand up today?

Liam Williams, definitely and I suspect Tomos Williams was good enough.

Josh Adam’s was a bit flat. Tompkins huffed and puffed and Roberts was ok. Owen Williams ok, nothing special and his early sub doesn’t augur well for him.


Thomas ok ish, Lake powerful but inaccurate. Francis does too little.

Beard is tame, Davies perhaps one for the future.

Lydiate the made a couple of trademark hits but seems very slow these days. Reffell alright but competition intense in his position. Plum tree was awful.


Off the bench, Basham was the best for impact alongside Biggar. Kieran Williams decent.

I think Gatland has some hard thinking to do for next week.

[pompey-zebra]

The match probably did what it was intended to, from a Wales point of view, in that it gave more information about what players can do as individuals and as a team put together from those who didn't play last week. The disappointment comes from not beating an awful England team. It probably confirmed a lot if what we knew in finding out about some of the fringe players, and whether they could force their way in. It'll be interesting to see what team is put out next week.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Stats:

WALES Tackles Missed, Tackles, Passes, Runs, Metres Run, Penalties
L WilliamsFB 1 0 8 14 77 0
J AdamsW 2 0 3 2 19 0
J RobertsC 6 2 1 7 52 0
N TompkinsC 3 2 8 5 6 0
T RogersW 3 1 0 6 37 1
O WilliamsFH 5 1 10 3 10 0
T WilliamsSH 7 1 39 5 57 0
G ThomasP 1 1 1 3 5 1
D LakeH 3 0 1 1 0 0
T FrancisP 8 0 0 1 1 1
R DaviesL 13 1 0 5 0 0
A BeardL 10 3 1 1 0 1
D LydiateFL 17 0 2 3 0 2
T ReffellFL 17 1 2 8 9 1
T PlumtreeN8 5 1 0 3 4 2
S ParryR 7 0 0 3 31 0
K MathiasR 9 1 0 1 0 1
D LewisR 6 0 0 3 0 1
C TshiunzaR 3 1 1 1 4 0
T BashamR 2 0 1 5 32 0
G DaviesR 0 0 4 2 6 0
D BiggarR 4 2 7 0 0 0
K WilliamsR 0 0 1 4 8 1

Lydiate and Reffell were the big tacklers - 17 made, 0 missed and 17 made, 1 missed respectively. Davies good with 13 and 1, Beard not so good 10 and 3. Plumtree useless with 5 and 1 (and only 4m made, 2 penalties against). Both centres missed a couple but at least Roberts made 52m. Tompkins looked good but his stats are poor - 3 tackles, 2 missed, 6m made.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=289234

So, who actually put their hand up today?

Liam Williams, definitely and I suspect Tomos Williams was good enough.

Josh Adam’s was a bit flat. Tompkins huffed and puffed and Roberts was ok. Owen Williams ok, nothing special and his early sub doesn’t augur well for him.


Thomas ok ish, Lake powerful but inaccurate. Francis does too little.

Beard is tame, Davies perhaps one for the future.

Lydiate the made a couple of trademark hits but seems very slow these days. Reffell alright but competition intense in his position. Plum tree was awful.


Off the bench, Basham was the best for impact alongside Biggar. Kieran Williams decent.

I think Gatland has some hard thinking to do for next week.

Yeah, Liam is nailed on now.

Lydiate's made a good case for himself, especially with Plumtree imploding and Tshiunza underwhelming. If Faletau returns Wainwright has a good claim for the 6 shirt though, and Davies is a contender.

Reffell is quality, unfortunately Morgan is even more so. Basham was eye-catching but would have needed Reffell to have a bad day to get into contention.

I'm in two minds about Tompkins after seeing his stats. I really hope Johnny Williams can play soon, or Keiran Williams gets another chance, otherwise Tompkins might get 12 by default.

Beard just about OK, but falling behind Jenkins for me.

The wingers were both fine, given their limited ball.

The props were ok. Fly halves were ok. Scrum halves were fine.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Damn it. That giving up of a lead is so hard to take. Australia must be licking their lips.

Consolation is that it wasn't our best team.

[pompey-zebra]

Damn it. That giving up of a lead is so hard to take. Australia must be licking their lips

Nah, different kettle of fish come the RWC. If past world cups are a guide, we'll only play a random team like that when we get to the third place play off and are selecting the last 23 able to stand.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Damn it. That giving up of a lead is so hard to take. Australia must be licking their lips

Nah, different kettle of fish come the RWC. If past world cups are a guide, we'll only play a random team like that when we get to the third place play off and are selecting the last 23 able to stand.

We usually play third place playoffs like we played the last 15 minutes of this match.

[Graigwen]

Yeah, Liam is nailed on now.

Lydiate's made a good case for himself, especially with Plumtree imploding and Tshiunza underwhelming. If Faletau returns Wainwright has a good claim for the 6 shirt though, and Davies is a contender.

Reffell is quality, unfortunately Morgan is even more so. Basham was eye-catching but would have needed Reffell to have a bad day to get into contention.

I'm in two minds about Tompkins after seeing his stats. I really hope Johnny Williams can play soon, or Keiran Williams gets another chance, otherwise Tompkins might get 12 by default.

Beard just about OK, but falling behind Jenkins for me.

The wingers were both fine, given their limited ball.

The props were ok. Fly halves were ok. Scrum halves were fine.

I would agree with most of that.
Lydiate was almost anonymous but nailed loads of tackles!!!

So, we need Reffel AND Morgan. Also Faletau AND Wainwright. Plumtree tried too hard and was a bit of a disappointment.
"Tshiunza underwhelming" again.

I thought Rhys Thomas was good. The other side of the coin was that Beard was indeed tame, as Son of Mathonwy said. For all his height he does not impose himself on line outs. A year ago I assumed he was a certainty for the World Cup, but I don't think so now.

I still don't think Rogers is international standard - he was given a bit of space sometimes today.

Tomkins - I don't know what to say. Stats were not good but he seemed to be involved all the time. I have felt like this about him before. I think he is that rare player, who is better on grass than on paper.

Sam Parry had a good game.

We missed a chance to put the game away, but overall a useful exercise.
.

.

[Sourdust]

I didn't think it would be possible to be disappointed with anything other than a hammering today. But yes, we were gifted a golden opportunity to humiliate them, and some how the fact that they avoided that humiliation by the skins of their arses is some sort of epic achievement. Good luck to them, I suppose. The scoreline is miles better than anyone realistically hoped, yet the ultimate manner of the defeat is galling. But I'll be over it by tomorrow, and I'm sure the team are already. We have lots of answers, again, even if they aren't all such positive ones this time. We're in a better place than them, relatively speaking... but the truth is we're both miles off. I don't fancy them against Argentina, or us against Australia. Those two QFs are anybody's...

[MrK]

I agree on Beard. I’d have had him as a nailed on starter with Rowlands before these matches… but I’m questioning whether he may be a surprise omission

Really wish we had Moriaty or Botham as a 6 option but too late for that now.

Very disappointed in Plumtree today but I’ll give him benefit of doubt

Centres still to be decided

Dyer, Rogers and Adams all underwhelming so far

Really think there’s lots of potential curve balls in gatlands squad

[switchskier]

Where was LRZ? You basically would have just had to pass him the ball and watch him burn people off on the break.

Dan Biggar was at ten and Gatland is the head coach. The former has all of the skills but just doesn't think that way, and would have gotten a bollocking from the latter if he had.

[pompey-zebra]

I agree on Beard. I’d have had him as a nailed on starter with Rowlands before these matches… but I’m questioning whether he may be a surprise omission

Really wish we had Moriaty or Botham as a 6 option but too late for that now.

Very disappointed in Plumtree today but I’ll give him benefit of doubt

Centres still to be decided

Dyer, Rogers and Adams all underwhelming so far

Really think there’s lots of potential curve balls in gatlands squad

Plumtree was always going to be a bit of a bolter, given that he's barely met his team mates before being capped. He'll be a part of Wales squads in.the future but maybe too soon now.

Agree that beard is not covering himself in glory at the minute, but he's not the only one from the regulars. Francis was disappointing given he's been first choice tight head for a while. Adams I thought did some good stuff, but perhaps doesn't look the player he was at his best. Lydiate's a briliant stopper but doesnt offer much else these days. The line out was often a shambles which was disappointing after it went quite well last week.

For next week, I think gatland will pick what he considers his strongest xv, with the addition of anscombe j Williams etc making the squad if fit. It might be make or break for some established names.

[Sandydragon]

For many of our players, this RWC is too soon. There’s some great raw talent but they need more experience to become good internationals.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Again yesterday we had the ridiculous situation where we were hoping for the replay to show that Liam Williams had not scored a try, so that we'd get an automatic 7 point try rather than needing a conversion to nail the 7 points. (And there's also the question of whether Steward would have got the yellow card if there had been no penalty try.)

This is crazy. Success should never be punished. And this would be simple to fix - just treat any try scored while foul play takes place in the same way as a penalty try - an automatic 7 point score and a yellow for the penalized player.

[Sourdust]

There are a couple of these annoyances.

The goal-line drop-out for a kick in-goal is barmy. It effectively means that if a player overhits a kick, as long as it doesn't go dead, he just gets another go. Whereas the same for "held-up" is far too harsh on the attacking side. The old result of an attacking Scrum 5 WAS too much reward, but why didn't we just swap to a Scrum 5 for the defence?

I also want to see penalties for both "deliberate" knock-on and at the scrum drastically reduced, but I accept I'm probably never going to win those arguments. But the fixes above are obvious and simple.

[Sandydragon]

I agree about the new held up law. Good defence should get a reward but a drop out is too much. 5m scrum feels more appropriate.

Don’t agree about deliberate knock ons. I think the current law gives enough leeway to refs to allow for genuine attempts at a catch versus a deliberate foul.

[Sandydragon]

And it had to happen. The Telegraph is comparing yesterdays win for England to the 2003 win against the All Blacks in New Zealand. Apparently this could be a turning point for England.

And yet if Farrell’s red card will deal a major blow to Borthwick’s leadership group, the defiant response to the crisis could yet go down in history as the turning point after a traumatic 12 months for English rugby, evoking memories of Sir Clive Woodward’s side’s heroic victory against the All Blacks in Wellington on the way to their 2003 World Cup triumph.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And it had to happen. The Telegraph is comparing yesterdays win for England to the 2003 win against the All Blacks in New Zealand. Apparently this could be a turning point for England.

And yet if Farrell’s red card will deal a major blow to Borthwick’s leadership group, the defiant response to the crisis could yet go down in history as the turning point after a traumatic 12 months for English rugby, evoking memories of Sir Clive Woodward’s side’s heroic victory against the All Blacks in Wellington on the way to their 2003 World Cup triumph.

Really unambitious sports journalism there. There should be comparing it with Jonny's kick to win the world cup. Saturday was way better than a mere victory over the ABs in Wellington.

[Buggaluggs]

Neither team can take too many positives. England let a 9-point lead against a Wales team with 15 changes from last week turn into a 1-point deficit. Then they turned desperate, lost their heads and went 2 scores down with not enough time or players left on the field to realistically expect to get that back.

Then Wales said "I'll see your headless chicken, and raise you a fainting goat" and turned an 8-point lead into a 2-point deficit over a final 15 minutes, through most of which they enjoyed a numerical advantage. Terrible game management. Wales probably had fewer of their RWC starting 15 out on the field yesterday than England. So maybe advantage Wales?

We'll see next week against Ireland and RSA respectively if Eng & Wales are as poor as they looked yesterday, or perhaps they're pretty good but just cancelled each other out.

[Sourdust]

Both teams looked completely unready for a RWC. That almost goes without saying.

BUT: Wales won the "rubber" 37-28 (4 tries to 1) despite never fielding anything remotely resembling a test side. We know a lot more about lots of our fringe players, we didn't sustain any definitive injuries, and we showed a strike rate from quality possession the like of which would be terrifying, if only we could secure quality possession more than twice per game...

We're better off now than we were a fortnight ago. I don't think that's true of the other lot, at all.

[normanski]

The only positive that Gatland can draw from Saturday is that out the thirty plus players who have been involved against England, he will now have a far better understanding who will be making his final squad and who has the balls to stand up to the opposition when times are tough in the next couple of months.

[Sourdust]

And it had to happen. The Telegraph is comparing yesterdays win for England to the 2003 win against the All Blacks in New Zealand. Apparently this could be a turning point for England.

Perfect. That's exactly what I want to see!

TBF the vast majority of English fan opinion I've read is very realistically negative. But it was fun to see a couple of references like "can barely beat the scratch side of a second-tier nation", and realize that there's still plenty of denial there...