Team For Saes.

[Sandydragon]

I thought at least Murray was better than Smith. But god that was bad, made worse by watching with a room full of English in laws.

I watched it in the stadium with 3 English friends, and I very nearly left at half time. By full time, I regretted I hadnt.
It was a long drive back to Portsmouth

I was driving home from Portsmouth during the Italy match, listening to that on the radio. Amazing how long a journey can take

[Sandydragon]

I watched it in the stadium with 3 English friends, and I very nearly left at half time. By full time, I regretted I hadnt.
It was a long drive back to Portsmouth

I had the misfortune to be present for the 2007 thrashing we got in the world cup warm-up game at Twickers. But I brushed that off easily since it was our third-choice team. This was our best. In Cardiff too. Glad I wasn't there for it this time. How long will people pay to see this sub-90s dross?

I was there for that one too. Maybe it's me!

How long will people pay you watch it? Well from where I was , plenty of supporters of other nations will be there, for a great time day out in Cardiff and a guaranteed win. Whether many Welsh supporters will, I doubt and whether the WRU cares about that, I doubt too. As long as the seats are filled and the bars are busy will they care who fills them?

Waking up to the memories of conceding try after try, Swing Low reverberating around our national stadium. Wales supporters leaving in droves, no element of competition left in the game with an hour or so left- humiliating is the word that keeps coming back n my mind. And you mention the 90's. Bad enough that happened once. To allow it again when the warning signs were there is unforgivable.

Sorry for the early sunday morning rant, but yesterday was utterly grim from where I was sat .

This was our worst performance of the professional era. I’ve just listened to Gwyn Jones and James Hook talk about this is just where we are at the moment against the best sides. Utter balls- England didn’t have to play well to humiliate us. Some luck aside, we just waved them through. I just don’t buy this physicality argument. This isn’t like the 90s where some players were clearly professional up against amateurs. A good number of that team play their rugby in England and France, they must be used to playing against physical players.

Even more frustrating was the fact that we won a fair bit of ball. Our first phase possession generally worked. We struggled to hang on to the ball though and got turned over far too easily and we just couldn’t defend.

This definitely isn’t a golden generation but I expect a better performance than that dross.

[paddy no 11]

The 2 Blair Murray incidents in the 1st half were huge

Inches from having another 14 points on the board

Also ye at least had a game plan unlike the 2 gatland matches

Is it me or was Morgan much more effective at 6? Yesterday was easily his quietest match

[Sandydragon]

The 2 Blair Murray incidents in the 1st half were huge

Inches from having another 14 points on the board

Also ye at least had a game plan unlike the 2 gatland matches

Is it me or was Morgan much more effective at 6? Yesterday was easily his quietest match

They were huge. That first non try could have been awarded, certainly no one was entirely sure either way at the time. Instead it’s disallowed and from the scum we leak a penalty, kick to the corner and converted English try follows. 14 point turn around.

As a former front row player I can absolutely applaud Cowan-Dickie for managing to get a small piece of a much quicker player as Murray was absolutely in other wise. 21-14 would have had a much different feel about it and perhaps heads would not have dropped so much on the second half.

[Sandydragon]

It’s a good point about Morgan. Our entire pack was quiet so perhaps understandable to an extent. He was knocking Scottish players backwards in the tackle like a good blindside should the week before and out in his fair share yesterday, but without the dominance.

Jury is out on that I think given the wider collapse

[Sandydragon]

The 2 Blair Murray incidents in the 1st half were huge

Inches from having another 14 points on the board

Also ye at least had a game plan unlike the 2 gatland matches

Is it me or was Morgan much more effective at 6? Yesterday was easily his quietest match

They were huge. That first non try could have been awarded, certainly no one was entirely sure either way at the time. Instead it’s disallowed and from the scum we leak a penalty, kick to the corner and converted English try follows. 14 point turn around.

As a former front row player I can absolutely applaud Cowan-Dickie for managing to get a small piece of a much quicker player as Murray was absolutely in other wise. 21-14 would have had a much different feel about it and perhaps heads would not have dropped so much on the second half.

Also huge was the first Welsh try. That Mail was driving very quickly to the line and collapsed suddenly just short. We got the penalty advantage from that but why wasn’t it a penalty try and yellow there and then? Most refs would have given it.

I think England were clearly the better side and would have won the game regardless yesterday. But it’s also clear the first half knocked the stuffing out of us and there were some mighty close calls that could easily have gone the other way which would have resulted in a much closer game at half time.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It’s a good point about Morgan. Our entire pack was quiet so perhaps understandable to an extent. He was knocking Scottish players backwards in the tackle like a good blindside should the week before and out in his fair share yesterday, but without the dominance.

Jury is out on that I think given the wider collapse

The problem wasn't Morgan's position. He put in 15 tackles. More of a problem was Wainwright and Faletau who only put in 2 and 3 tackles throughout.

Someone (not me!) needs to analyze why our defence was so ineffective yesterday compared with the Ireland game.

Yeah, I don't accept this physicality thing, nor that it was a match too far. They are professionals.

[Sandydragon]

It’s a good point about Morgan. Our entire pack was quiet so perhaps understandable to an extent. He was knocking Scottish players backwards in the tackle like a good blindside should the week before and out in his fair share yesterday, but without the dominance.

Jury is out on that I think given the wider collapse

The problem wasn't Morgan's position. He put in 15 tackles. More of a problem was Wainwright and Faletau who only put in 2 and 3 tackles throughout.

Someone (not me!) needs to analyze why our defence was so ineffective yesterday compared with the Ireland game.

Yeah, I don't accept this physicality thing, nor that it was a match too far. They are professionals.

I’m convinced the biggest problem yesterday was mental. Very little on the first half went our way and heads dropped. No one claims that the Irish players aren’t physical yet we knocked them back for 60 mins.

Our defence has been shit for ages. Like Scotland England were able to work out the weak points and exploit them ruthlessly.

[pompey-zebra]

It’s a good point about Morgan. Our entire pack was quiet so perhaps understandable to an extent. He was knocking Scottish players backwards in the tackle like a good blindside should the week before and out in his fair share yesterday, but without the dominance.

Jury is out on that I think given the wider collapse

The problem wasn't Morgan's position. He put in 15 tackles. More of a problem was Wainwright and Faletau who only put in 2 and 3 tackles throughout.

Someone (not me!) needs to analyze why our defence was so ineffective yesterday compared with the Ireland game.

Yeah, I don't accept this physicality thing, nor that it was a match too far. They are professionals.

I’m convinced the biggest problem yesterday was mental. Very little on the first half went our way and heads dropped. No one claims that the Irish players aren’t physical yet we knocked them back for 60 mins.

Our defence has been shit for ages. Like Scotland England were able to work out the weak points and exploit them ruthlessly.

I think their heads really dropped after getting back to 14-7, then conceding a try almost straight after. That probably contributed to England getting 2 more tries late in the half and effectively killing the game off.

[Which Tyler]

[paddy no 11]

Warburton calling for 3 regions on the 6 nations highlights show

Presumably this has to happen

Ireland 6 million islanders support 4 Pro sides
Scotland 5 million supports 2

Yes they're different dynamics with football etc but 3 million in wales can't support 4 teams especially with the numbers coming through the door in Llanelli etc

(Scottish football league is best supported in the world per capita I'm told, could be nonsense)

[pompey-zebra]

"Its OK, little fella! A few more defeats like this and no one will play rugby in your country and you won't have to about it when you grow up!"

[Sandydragon]

Warburton calling for 3 regions on the 6 nations highlights show

Presumably this has to happen

Ireland 6 million islanders support 4 Pro sides
Scotland 5 million supports 2

Yes they're different dynamics with football etc but 3 million in wales can't support 4 teams especially with the numbers coming through the door in Llanelli etc

(Scottish football league is best supported in the world per capita I'm told, could be nonsense)

The problem with dropping one or two teams entirely is that there just won’t be the depth in players to make positions competitive, particularly with foreign imports. With extra cash the regions are just as likely to buy NWQ players to improve their chances of a win, which will do little for the Welsh team. Plus fewer teams in the URL means less cash from the competition.

The obvious region to cut is the dragons. But that would leave Gwent without a pro outfit. Gwent has the highest number of amateur clubs in wales so essentially that’s a huge kick in the teeth to the community game and will reduce the flow of young players via the academies. There is very little chance of dragons supports suddenly supporting Cardiff.


If we were to drop to three teams, then they have to be WRU run entirely. East, West and North (the latter acknowledged to be a development side). All players and staff directly contracted to the WRU and home games moved around the various stadiums in the regions with rent paid to the stadium owners. Every team spot becomes important and there’s simply no room for journeymen or nwq payers who aren’t pulling their weight.


Has the WRU got the cash to set that up? I can’t see the regions agreeing to it. Nor can I see them agreeing to the other option of 2+2 funding which could work.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Warburton calling for 3 regions on the 6 nations highlights show

Presumably this has to happen

Ireland 6 million islanders support 4 Pro sides
Scotland 5 million supports 2

Yes they're different dynamics with football etc but 3 million in wales can't support 4 teams especially with the numbers coming through the door in Llanelli etc

(Scottish football league is best supported in the world per capita I'm told, could be nonsense)

I disagree. It's still much more drastic to get rid of a region completely than it is to defund/turn it into a development region. What would that region prefer, dev status or annihilation? The problem is that the WRU can't make either happen.

Admittedly the situation is so bad that it might push the WRU to some nuclear option, like an ultimatum to all of the regions - sign this or you all lose your URC slots. But I expect that would cause Welsh rugby to get even worse before it got better.

[Sandydragon]

"Its OK, little fella! A few more defeats like this and no one will play rugby in your country and you won't have to about it when you grow up!"

You did so well on your debut little fella, but of work to do on your tackling perhaps.

Wait, you weren’t the starting fly half?

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't understand how the regions still find people willing to invest. How have they all stayed afloat?

Okay, admittedly the WRU kept the Dragons afloat a few years ago. That was their opportunity to restructure the regions and they blew it.

[Son of Mathonwy]

"Its OK, little fella! A few more defeats like this and no one will play rugby in your country and you won't have to about it when you grow up!"

You did so well on your debut little fella, but of work to do on your tackling perhaps.

Wait, you weren’t the starting fly half?

Poor little guy. I can imagine that 'why are you putting me through this, Daddy?' look on his face.

[Sandydragon]

I don't understand how the regions still find people willing to invest. How have they all stayed afloat?

Okay, admittedly the WRU kept the Dragons afloat a few years ago. That was their opportunity to restructure the regions and they blew it.

That’s was the charge made against Lewis- he was trying to get them to go bankrupt. None of them are an investment (few sports teams are to be fair at least in terms of profit).

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't understand how the regions still find people willing to invest. How have they all stayed afloat?

Okay, admittedly the WRU kept the Dragons afloat a few years ago. That was their opportunity to restructure the regions and they blew it.

That’s was the charge made against Lewis- he was trying to get them to go bankrupt. None of them are an investment (few sports teams are to be fair at least in terms of profit).

That was my suspicion. Unfortunately it pushed them into a suckers deal with the English and French clubs getting most of the revenue from the European Cup. (I remember the regions being told their help would not be forgotten . . . except now, when we really need to merge into an Anglo-Welsh league, and we're told that's not an option.)

I have a horrible feeling that to force the regions to really fix things would require going to war and have zero cooperation for a few years, and thus even worse national performances for a while. And bottom of the table results in the URC.

[Graigwen]

I had expected it to be bad, but that was much worse.

It is difficult to have sensible thoughts.
.

[Sandydragon]

I don't understand how the regions still find people willing to invest. How have they all stayed afloat?

Okay, admittedly the WRU kept the Dragons afloat a few years ago. That was their opportunity to restructure the regions and they blew it.

That’s was the charge made against Lewis- he was trying to get them to go bankrupt. None of them are an investment (few sports teams are to be fair at least in terms of profit).

That was my suspicion. Unfortunately it pushed them into a suckers deal with the English and French clubs getting most of the revenue from the European Cup. (I remember the regions being told their help would not be forgotten . . . except now, when we really need to merge into an Anglo-Welsh league, and we're told that's not an option.)

I have a horrible feeling that to force the regions to really fix things would require going to war and have zero cooperation for a few years, and thus even worse national performances for a while. And bottom of the table results in the URC.

I don’t even know how the WRU would seek to wrest control. Maybe take the decision that it will enter 3 regions when the UTC is next up for negotiation and state that the WRU will have control of those team. But if the regions decide to kickback then they do actually contract the players.

Maybe an interim solution is to centrally contract 40 players as part of a wider national squad and expect them to play across 2 regions, leaving the other 2 as training camps. I can’t see this working too well either unless the regions actively buy in.

Basically, if the WRU had been able to take charge of this when the game went professional and set up its own 3 or 4 sides we wouldn’t be in this mess, but sadly we are.

[Son of Mathonwy]

That’s was the charge made against Lewis- he was trying to get them to go bankrupt. None of them are an investment (few sports teams are to be fair at least in terms of profit).

That was my suspicion. Unfortunately it pushed them into a suckers deal with the English and French clubs getting most of the revenue from the European Cup. (I remember the regions being told their help would not be forgotten . . . except now, when we really need to merge into an Anglo-Welsh league, and we're told that's not an option.)

I have a horrible feeling that to force the regions to really fix things would require going to war and have zero cooperation for a few years, and thus even worse national performances for a while. And bottom of the table results in the URC.

I don’t even know how the WRU would seek to wrest control. Maybe take the decision that it will enter 3 regions when the UTC is next up for negotiation and state that the WRU will have control of those team. But if the regions decide to kickback then they do actually contract the players.

Maybe an interim solution is to centrally contract 40 players as part of a wider national squad and expect them to play across 2 regions, leaving the other 2 as training camps. I can’t see this working too well either unless the regions actively buy in.

Basically, if the WRU had been able to take charge of this when the game went professional and set up its own 3 or 4 sides we wouldn’t be in this mess, but sadly we are.

This is a guess - if there was total breakdown:
The national team would have access to the players in international windows as usual - unless they went on strike!
The WRU would set up 2+2 teams (or whatever) as they see fit of available players (not contracted to the regions) and enter these into the URC.
Not sure what would happen with the European competitions - I imagine the regions might still have their slots there, at least initially.
So, the national team might just limp on (strikes aside) but the URC teams would be hopelessly uncompetitive. Although they are pretty uncompetitive now. The regions would go out of business eventually, having drastically reduced income, leaving the players available to the WRU's teams. Lawyers would have a field day. If the players sided with the regions and refused to play for Wales, maybe the WRU would fold too . . . although I think the Principality stadium would still produce enough revenue to get through. NB since the WRU is really controlled by all the little clubs - they would have the final say on all of this.

NB this is all guesswork. The WRU's lawyers actually know the truth.

[Sandydragon]

The only people happy in that scenario will be the lawyers. I’m assuming that the legal position is a bit murky, if there was a simple way to replace the regions withWRU owned entities I suspect Lewis would have done it.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The only people happy in that scenario will be the lawyers. I’m assuming that the legal position is a bit murky, if there was a simple way to replace the regions withWRU owned entities I suspect Lewis would have done it.

What I don't understand is how Moffat was able to make such huge changes 20 years ago but now any change seems impossible.

[Sandydragon]

The only people happy in that scenario will be the lawyers. I’m assuming that the legal position is a bit murky, if there was a simple way to replace the regions withWRU owned entities I suspect Lewis would have done it.

What I don't understand is how Moffat was able to make such huge changes 20 years ago but now any change seems impossible.

Puts that into perspective doesn’t it? I don’t think the current leadership have the vision and forcefulness to push anything radical through