High Tackle .... present guidelines..what do you think ?

[ALunpg]

Dai Young has commented on the interpretation of the high tackle on BBC radio 5 live. Is it being applied with the correct balance.?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38286626

"The officiating of high tackles in rugby is starting to become "a bit of a joke", says Wasps boss Dai Young.
In November officials clamped down on any contact with the head or neck area.
Young's comments came after Wasps debutant Kurtley Beale was shown a yellow card in their European Champions Cup win against Connacht on Sunday.
"Player welfare is huge and we are 100% behind that," he told BBC Radio 5 live. "But we have to decide whether we play touch rugby or contact."
"There is no way that was a yellow card. It is starting to get a bit of a joke really."
Beale was sent to the sin-bin despite Connacht's Niyi Adeolokun ducking into the challenge.
"I don't want to play down the player safety element, but we can't go overboard with it," added Young.
"Anything above the nipple area at the moment seems to be a yellow card, which is taking some things away from the game."

World Rugby's rules on high tackles
"A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent's neck or head is dangerous play."
"Referees and citing commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment of the overall circumstances of the tackle."

[fivepointer]

The yellow was ridiculous. The attacking player fell into Beale whose arm was around waist height. By all means punish high and dangerous tackles, but officials must exercise some commonsense and discretion when viewing these incidents.

Dai is absolutely spot on.

[Sandydragon]

A full on high tackle is dangerous and I have no problem with referees sending players off as a result, yellow or red, as the situation dictates. Yet with all rugby laws there needs to be a degree of common sense, and the problem with these dictats is that they result in the swinging pendulum.

Remember spear tackles? What happened to BOD on the 05 Lions tour should have resulted in a sanction against 2 All Black players. As a result, refs are instructed to crack down and suddenly you have a situation when Warburton is sent off for tackling a lighter player who is attempting to hurdle the tackle. The 2 situations are a world apart and thus the laws have to be applied with a degree of common sense.

I nthe example Dai Young highlights, the tackled player was already dropping and that should have been taken in to account. Definitely not a yellow.

[stud muffin]

Some of the decisions lately have been laughable, so Definitely agree with Young. They started being tougher on high tackles a few years whilst completely ignoring the choke tackle, which I thought at the time was much more of a problem. Now it seems that if you touch someone's shoulder you get 10 mins in the bin.

Obviously player welfare is paramount, but there is a real danger of rugby having it's soul ripped out. We are starting to see tacklers aiming for the mid riff being penalised as the attacker ducks into the tackle.

World rugby keep changing the rules when the old ones were completely sufficient but were not being policed correctly. It would be much more beneficial if there was a greater emphasis on ensuring referees were more capable.

[ALunpg]

Here are my thoughts

I totally support the point Dai Young is making that there needs to be a consistant approach in how this is interpreted on the pitch.

The guidance given to referees in how they are instructed to interpret what happens on the pitch changes.The interpretation is never the same from one referee to another but in time the exesses are curbed in player behaviour and the way officials interpret it or another guidance comes out and changes the inerpretation... again.

From my point of view it is a crazy sutuation, but World Rugby never seem to get this bit right even at the highest level of the game.

[Cameo]

I agree on the inconsistency and harshness when it comes to ducking players but actually think if you are aiming above the nipple you are taking a risk both in terms of safety and sanctions

[ALunpg]

I agree on the inconsistency and harshness when it comes to ducking players but actually think if you are aiming above the nipple you are taking a risk both in terms of safety and sanctions

Yes you are correct.. of course often this type of man and ball tackle is to prevent the offload, but even if you aim at the midway of the chest and wrap around if someone is dipping into the tackle the tackler could end up being around the shoulders.

It is not an easy problem to resolve, but , what I think would help is World Rugby to issue a clear set of instructions with examples for officials .. coaches and players alike to get a clear understanding.
Then they may not a be singing in harmony but they at least will know what page the music is on.

It would not hurt if fans were also let in on these guidance documents to help us understand.

[ALunpg]

So the law has now been changed to reflect what is being apllied in the game at top level

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38322884

Will be interesting to see what or if any clear information gets passed to the fans and explained to the clubs

Update press release from World Rugby

http://www.worldrugby.org/media-centre/media-releases

From 3 January, two new categories of dangerous tackles will carry penalty offences to deter and eradicate high tackles:

Reckless tackle
A player is deemed to have made reckless contact during a tackle or attempted tackle or during other phases of the game if in making contact, the player knew or should have known that there was a risk of making contact with the head of an opponent, but did so anyway. This sanction applies even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. This type of contact also applies to grabbing and rolling or twisting around the head/neck area even if the contact starts below the line of the shoulders.

Minimum sanction: Yellow card
Maximum sanction: Red card

Accidental tackle
When making contact with another player during a tackle or attempted tackle or during other phases of the game, if a player makes accidental contact with an opponent's head, either directly or where the contact starts below the line of the shoulders, the player may still be sanctioned. This includes situations where the ball-carrier slips into the tackle.

Minimum sanction: Penalty

[Lizard]

This will ruin Rugby.

There is now a massive incentive for any ball-carrier to duck into a tackle and cause contact with their head to milk a penalty.

How the fuck are you supposed to stop a prop on the pick and go, from a ruck on your line, coming at you with his nose inches off the turf without in some way contacting his head?

If this rule is enforced to the hilt I might well be put off rugby altogether.

[whatisthejava]

This will ruin Rugby.

There is now a massive incentive for any ball-carrier to duck into a tackle and cause contact with their head to milk a penalty.

How the fuck are you supposed to stop a prop on the pick and go, from a ruck on your line, coming at you with his nose inches off the turf without in some way contacting his head?

If this rule is enforced to the hilt I might well be put off rugby altogether.

The law won't be implemented for pick and gos and its clear to try and prevent tackles in open play, I think its far more worrying for guys like Sexton who doesn't seem to know how to tackle without standing straight up and hoping that their isn't a clash of heads,

If it really is implemented then most choke tackles and the stand up tackle could be in big trouble

If I'm honest I think its nonsense to implement it in Jan, really doesn't give the refs any time to adapt to it before the 6N, I predict at least 1 - 2 players a week will end up in the bin and at least 1 game will be lost due to the refs being inconsistent.

Watch out for some unlucky player getting pinged for something that at least 7 other players do the same weekend with no penalty against them

[whatisthejava]

This will ruin Rugby.

There is now a massive incentive for any ball-carrier to duck into a tackle and cause contact with their head to milk a penalty.

How the fuck are you supposed to stop a prop on the pick and go, from a ruck on your line, coming at you with his nose inches off the turf without in some way contacting his head?

If this rule is enforced to the hilt I might well be put off rugby altogether.

What will ruin rugby is World Rugby not dealing with the concussion time bomb currently ticking away, this at least is a step forward

[Lizard]

This will ruin Rugby.

There is now a massive incentive for any ball-carrier to duck into a tackle and cause contact with their head to milk a penalty.

How the fuck are you supposed to stop a prop on the pick and go, from a ruck on your line, coming at you with his nose inches off the turf without in some way contacting his head?

If this rule is enforced to the hilt I might well be put off rugby altogether.

What will ruin rugby is World Rugby not dealing with the concussion time bomb currently ticking away, this at least is a step forward

How is it a step forward when this law positively encourages the ball carrier to engineer head contact to draw the penalty?

[whatisthejava]

This will ruin Rugby.

There is now a massive incentive for any ball-carrier to duck into a tackle and cause contact with their head to milk a penalty.

How the fuck are you supposed to stop a prop on the pick and go, from a ruck on your line, coming at you with his nose inches off the turf without in some way contacting his head?

If this rule is enforced to the hilt I might well be put off rugby altogether.

What will ruin rugby is World Rugby not dealing with the concussion time bomb currently ticking away, this at least is a step forward

How is it a step forward when this law positively encourages the ball carrier to engineer head contact to draw the penalty?

If thats what happens then players will need to go lower, u can't make accidental contact if your tackling someone below the waist

[whatisthejava]

Rob Baxter speaks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38319356

He is a very sensible coach and is a bit concerned about this, he is right though it will take 6 months until all the kinks are fixed , unfortunately this was needed at start of the season rather than 4 weeks before the 6N

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. Nailed it.

""I think if you want them to referee games of rugby well you have to give them responsibility, and the majority of good referees have a really good feeling for what's going on in a rugby game and whether it's a genuine rugby incident or it's a deliberate act of foul play," the 45-year-old said."

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. Nailed it.

""I think if you want them to referee games of rugby well you have to give them responsibility, and the majority of good referees have a really good feeling for what's going on in a rugby game and whether it's a genuine rugby incident or it's a deliberate act of foul play," the 45-year-old said."

[Numbers]

Yep. Nailed it.

""I think if you want them to referee games of rugby well you have to give them responsibility, and the majority of good referees have a really good feeling for what's going on in a rugby game and whether it's a genuine rugby incident or it's a deliberate act of foul play," the 45-year-old said."

I agree.

The point being "the majority of good referees"

It needs consistency like all the other areas of officiating, the problem being that with the severity of the punishments (yellow or red cards), the impact on the result of the game in the event of an incorrect decision being made would be more severe.

[stud muffin]

http://www.rugbyrampage.co.nz/blog/reck ... -no-reason

A deliberate act of foul play I think!!

[Mikey Brown]

It's not high though so who cares.

[Which Tyler]

Does have a thread of its very own though.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The problem with "sure the referees will sort it out with sensitivity" is that they aren't and won't. Because some feckwit in a studio or agroup of them in a message board will always say "Bloody referee ruined the game it's not tiddlywinks".

This is a real problem which isn't going away. Lower tackles will actually make the game more attractive both in terms of the sort of play with the ball and rucking game most of like to see and to the casual observer or sideline mother not seeing their players/kids carted off.

[Which Tyler]

On the one hand - tackles go lower = more ofloads
Alternatively - runners put their head lower - harder to offload, or show any vision at all really

Either way, the law of unintended consequences is likely to be the real winner here

[Eugene Wrayburn]

On the one hand - tackles go lower = more ofloads
Alternatively - runners put their head lower - harder to offload, or show any vision at all really

Either way, the law of unintended consequences is likely to be the real winner here

I think the numbers of people ducking into tackles won't increase. I suspect and hope there won't be many sanctions for the "accidental tackle" situation - a sanction only "may" be imposed for these, which I'd hope will be for truly borderline cases. I expect and fear that after about a month everything will be deemed to be accidental and we'll be back to square one.

[ALunpg]

What do we want matches remembered for ..being enjoyable or focussing on one players moment of madness and a poor game because of it?

So here is a thought .....in these situations maybe an alternative punishment may be useful where in the correct cicumstances the player is still red card and ejected from the game but a substitute is allowed on after 10 minutes plus a 50m distance penalty.

I know that in many situations a complete dimissal is warranted but what do we as supporters want to see .

Personally I want to see the offending player get the correct punishment..sent off if required. I am also adamant I want this type of tackle removed from the game ..its not rugby as I wish to see it. I would rather the offload took place and my team lost than this type of dangerous tackling took place.

As a coach I pulled players off the pitch if I thought it was reckless and dangerous foul play even if the ref did not see it.

Its just a thought

[Doorzetbornandbred]

As a coach in the lower levels of the game Im concerned referees won't have the balls to card people. I can see the merits in what World Rugby are trying to do but do have concerns its not going to work.