What you think ...two matches left.

[ALunpg]

Its a hard day to be a Wales supporter

Here is my suggestion to our acting head coach and his team.

Dear Rob

This is attributed to Albert Einstein...not a rugby coach ..but a smart cookie by any standards..

Definition of Insanity:
doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Do you think its a thing worthwhile thinking about Rob...?

[Gog]

The problem is, how much influence does Gatland have? Does Howly actually have the final say in tactics/selection etc. Maybe he has no real say.

[Gog]

Personally, I think we should write off the comp and try something different, maybe new tactics, blood a few players. But... we know that won't happen

[MrK]

Problem is we need to win the next two for the WC rankings.

Therefore the excuse will be we need to stick with experience

Only changes i can see happening are Faletau and Roberts actually starting...thats about as tactical as we are going to get with Howley.

What we should see is a team with Steff Evans starting - North has been no better than Cuthbert IMO, and maybe O Williams on the bench as centre cover.

Ideally wwe should also give Sam a chance to show what hes got for 80 mins

But it wont happen. We will give the "golden generation" another go

[Spiffy]

Wales are a powerful and physical team and several players are individually good. But they seem to lack some direction, rugby brains and a traditional playmaker at 10/12 who can pull the strings.

[ALunpg]

The problem is, how much influence does Gatland have? Does Howly actually have the final say in tactics/selection etc. Maybe he has no real say.

Yes thats a question we all guess at ..but I dont think Gatland has any input in selection or game tactics during these specific matches. This is down to Howley ... but for one thing...he has worked with Gatland for years, so his style of play will mimic his boss.

However in reality, Howley is not the same quality of coach. This does not mean he isnt a knowledgeable and meticilous coach and that he wants great things for Wales ...just he is not managing to convert that into wins.

People may not like how Gatland organises it..but he is ruthless in achieving his goals. I am yet to see that level of ruthlessness with Howley .but we will see? He may suprise us all...because something needs to happen as another two loses would be a major problem for the future .

[wayneha50]

I expect maybe one or two changes to the starting 15s but nothing really significant. We will continue to do the same things as we have done over the last 24 months which will continue to not work. Best-case scenario I see is that after losing to Ireland we go for broke against France & somehow win that, thus allowing Howley to come out with usual nonsense about something to build on etc etc .

Unfortunately I think he is unsackable & we are stuck with him. The coaching situation is a horrible mess. They are 18/24 months past their sell-by-date, Gatland should never have been allowed another sabbatical & Howley actually replacing him does not bear thinking about. Sadly it does not seem entirely out-of-the-question given the WRUs incompetence.

Very despressing times for Welsh rugby supporters.

[ALunpg]

I am not sure that Liam and Halfpenny swapping is the panacea for this problem.

It was a dire second half ... and the root of the problem needs some bypass surgery.. but we have a coaching team that would worry me sometomes cutting toenails.

The problem is they wont make radical changes ..we will get the same nonesense. But maybe something called reality may hit home....naaah

[Son of Mathonwy]

The problem is, how much influence does Gatland have? Does Howly actually have the final say in tactics/selection etc. Maybe he has no real say.

Yes thats a question we all guess at ..but I dont think Gatland has any input in selection or game tactics during these specific matches. This is down to Howley ... but for one thing...he has worked with Gatland for years, so his style of play will mimic his boss.

However in reality, Howley is not the same quality of coach. This does not mean he isnt a knowledgeable and meticilous coach and that he wants great things for Wales ...just he is not managing to convert that into wins.

People may not like how Gatland organises it..but he is ruthless in achieving his goals. I am yet to see that level of ruthlessness with Howley .but we will see? He may suprise us all...because something needs to happen as another two loses would be a major problem for the future .

I'm not convinced Gatland and Howley are that different - Howley learned most of his coaching from Gatland, and he's not made any radical changes (or in fact any changes, unless Warburton stepping down was really his idea). Would Gatland have beaten Scotland? We've come pretty close to defeat on the last two occasions, Scotland have definitely improved, so I'm not convinced the result would have been any different with the Kiwi.

Howley should make changes for the last two games, but anything radical would be implicitly admitting that he's got it wrong to date, and that's not going to happen. So maybe a token change at best. He might even regress and reinstate Roberts.

For me, I'd start Sam Davies, switch Liam and Leigh, get Giles (another try today) into the squad and onto the bench. I don't see any of this happening.

[kk67]

Wales are a powerful and physical team and several players are individually good. But they seem to lack some direction, rugby brains and a traditional playmaker at 10/12 who can pull the strings.

I cannot understand why we are losing.
It does seem to be desire and determination. We have some decent players that do not desire excellence.

[Sandydragon]

I think the issue is a much about morale as about selection. On Saturday the Scots began to play rugby and our heads dropped. Collectively our team panicked and made mistakes by the bucketful. Its like they are trying to do something they dont really understand and dont believe in.

[Nightynight]

I think the issue is a much about morale as about selection. On Saturday the Scots began to play rugby and our heads dropped. Collectively our team panicked and made mistakes by the bucketful. Its like they are trying to do something they dont really understand and dont believe in.

What a load of horrlicks, gatlands team selection has left Wales with very similar players in like for like positions for the most part, for the most part the backline from 10 to 15 is 1 diemsional in attack and changing the odd player doesn't really change pattern. It's the players as much the coach

[Sandydragon]

I think the issue is a much about morale as about selection. On Saturday the Scots began to play rugby and our heads dropped. Collectively our team panicked and made mistakes by the bucketful. Its like they are trying to do something they dont really understand and dont believe in.

What a load of horrlicks, gatlands team selection has left Wales with very similar players in like for like positions for the most part, for the most part the backline from 10 to 15 is 1 diemsional in attack and changing the odd player doesn't really change pattern. It's the players as much the coach

I'll humour you, briefly. That one dimensional attack is, allegedly, trying to be changed to something more open. I agree with you in part that some players will struggle with this, Jamie Roberts for example. However, many of our backs are quite capable of playing a more open game - JD2 and Liam Williams have managed quite capably with the Scarlets.

Wales have a system and players are expected to play to it. If you dont think that the Welsh players can play to another style, I suggest you watch some Welsh regional rugby where many show plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[Nightynight]

I think the issue is a much about morale as about selection. On Saturday the Scots began to play rugby and our heads dropped. Collectively our team panicked and made mistakes by the bucketful. Its like they are trying to do something they dont really understand and dont believe in.

What a load of horrlicks, gatlands team selection has left Wales with very similar players in like for like positions for the most part, for the most part the backline from 10 to 15 is 1 diemsional in attack and changing the odd player doesn't really change pattern. It's the players as much the coach

I'll humour you, briefly. That one dimensional attack is, allegedly, trying to be changed to something more open. I agree with you in part that some players will struggle with this, Jamie Roberts for example. However, many of our backs are quite capable of playing a more open game - JD2 and Liam Williams have managed quite capably with the Scarlets.

Wales have a system and players are expected to play to it. If you dont think that the Welsh players can play to another style, I suggest you watch some Welsh regional rugby where many show plenty of evidence to the contrary.

2 from 23 . Thank you for making my point for me. I was referring to the players selected not possibles.

[Renniks]

I cannot understand why we are losing.

And the English are the arrogant ones?

[ALunpg]

The problem is, how much influence does Gatland have? Does Howly actually have the final say in tactics/selection etc. Maybe he has no real say.

Yes thats a question we all guess at ..but I dont think Gatland has any input in selection or game tactics during these specific matches. This is down to Howley ... but for one thing...he has worked with Gatland for years, so his style of play will mimic his boss.

However in reality, Howley is not the same quality of coach. This does not mean he isnt a knowledgeable and meticilous coach and that he wants great things for Wales ...just he is not managing to convert that into wins.

People may not like how Gatland organises it..but he is ruthless in achieving his goals. I am yet to see that level of ruthlessness with Howley .but we will see? He may suprise us all...because something needs to happen as another two loses would be a major problem for the future .

I'm not convinced Gatland and Howley are that different - Howley learned most of his coaching from Gatland, and he's not made any radical changes (or in fact any changes, unless Warburton stepping down was really his idea). Would Gatland have beaten Scotland? We've come pretty close to defeat on the last two occasions, Scotland have definitely improved, so I'm not convinced the result would have been any different with the Kiwi.

Howley should make changes for the last two games, but anything radical would be implicitly admitting that he's got it wrong to date, and that's not going to happen. So maybe a token change at best. He might even regress and reinstate Roberts.

For me, I'd start Sam Davies, switch Liam and Leigh, get Giles (another try today) into the squad and onto the bench. I don't see any of this happening.

Yes of course the styles are the same but I still dont think Gatland had any input. Would Wales have won if Gatland was there just for this match ... based upon where this team are at the moment..no. However I do think the change of coach made a measurable differance... and not for the better.

I agree it is unlikely Howley will change much of the team ..but we are really short of enough in form players in the squad to make a critical mass change.

I just dont believe a little tinkering here and there will make the change in performance necessary to make it a winning way , will it move Wales forward..I am not even convinced of that.

[Sourdust]

The problem with the "rankings" excuse, is that it will always be true. You lose games, your ranking drops. Given a small player pool, no-one wants to "develop" under those conditions. You just try your damnedest to win, today, because there are essentially no games that you can "afford" to lose.

The coaches will gamble that the same 23 has a (slightly) better chance of scraping an ugly win against Ireland next time out, than an inexperienced selection based on raw talent and club form. They're probably right. They always will be probably right. Fringe players will stay on the fringe unless someone gets crocked. I don't see an easy way out of this cycle.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The problem with the "rankings" excuse, is that it will always be true. You lose games, your ranking drops. Given a small player pool, no-one wants to "develop" under those conditions. You just try your damnedest to win, today, because there are essentially no games that you can "afford" to lose.

The coaches will gamble that the same 23 has a (slightly) better chance of scraping an ugly win against Ireland next time out, than an inexperienced selection based on raw talent and club form. They're probably right. They always will be probably right. Fringe players will stay on the fringe unless someone gets crocked. I don't see an easy way out of this cycle.

We might win a low scoring arm-wrestle with France but I just don't see us containing Ireland for 80 minutes. They WILL score several tries, so we need the players to score some of our own (more than one would be nice).

Our tedious defence-first, attack-second approach has often been enough for the Six Nations (not enough for NZ/AUS/SA of course), but now England, Ireland and Scotland (possibly France too) have visibly upped their game. We have perhaps not gone backwards in absolute terms, but we have relatively - and in sport that's all that matters. We need to do what we've needed to do for years, develop our attack.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

What a load of horrlicks, gatlands team selection has left Wales with very similar players in like for like positions for the most part, for the most part the backline from 10 to 15 is 1 diemsional in attack and changing the odd player doesn't really change pattern. It's the players as much the coach

I'll humour you, briefly. That one dimensional attack is, allegedly, trying to be changed to something more open. I agree with you in part that some players will struggle with this, Jamie Roberts for example. However, many of our backs are quite capable of playing a more open game - JD2 and Liam Williams have managed quite capably with the Scarlets.

Wales have a system and players are expected to play to it. If you dont think that the Welsh players can play to another style, I suggest you watch some Welsh regional rugby where many show plenty of evidence to the contrary.

2 from 23 . Thank you for making my point for me. I was referring to the players selected not possibles.

They aren't the only players from Scarlets in the back line never mind the 23. The Scarlets aren't the only team that plays in a different way to Gatland. You only think he made his point for you because as he said you don't watch any regional rugby.

Howley was never going to be - or going to be allowed to be - revolutionary. He's an interim head coach with no possibility of being kept on in the job and knowledge of exactly who is going to be taking over and exactly what their coaching methods are. Even if he were allowed to try to develop the team in a completely new direction for 9 months, would it be in the best interests of the team to take that completely new tack only to revert back?

[Nightynight]

I'll humour you, briefly. That one dimensional attack is, allegedly, trying to be changed to something more open. I agree with you in part that some players will struggle with this, Jamie Roberts for example. However, many of our backs are quite capable of playing a more open game - JD2 and Liam Williams have managed quite capably with the Scarlets.

Wales have a system and players are expected to play to it. If you dont think that the Welsh players can play to another style, I suggest you watch some Welsh regional rugby where many show plenty of evidence to the contrary.

2 from 23 . Thank you for making my point for me. I was referring to the players selected not possibles.

They aren't the only players from Scarlets in the back line never mind the 23. The Scarlets aren't the only team that plays in a different way to Gatland. You only think he made his point for you because as he said you don't watch any regional rugby.

Howley was never going to be - or going to be allowed to be - revolutionary. He's an interim head coach with no possibility of being kept on in the job and knowledge of exactly who is going to be taking over and exactly what their coaching methods are. Even if he were allowed to try to develop the team in a completely new direction for 9 months, would it be in the best interests of the team to take that completely new tack only to revert back?

And I don't see that in individual players, bosh & run straight and not much else. Creative thinking isn't there, heads up playing goes out the window as soon as they put on a Welsh jersey?

[ALunpg]

The problem with the "rankings" excuse, is that it will always be true. You lose games, your ranking drops. Given a small player pool, no-one wants to "develop" under those conditions. You just try your damnedest to win, today, because there are essentially no games that you can "afford" to lose.

The coaches will gamble that the same 23 has a (slightly) better chance of scraping an ugly win against Ireland next time out, than an inexperienced selection based on raw talent and club form. They're probably right. They always will be probably right. Fringe players will stay on the fringe unless someone gets crocked. I don't see an easy way out of this cycle.

We might win a low scoring arm-wrestle with France but I just don't see us containing Ireland for 80 minutes. They WILL score several tries, so we need the players to score some of our own (more than one would be nice).

Our tedious defence-first, attack-second approach has often been enough for the Six Nations (not enough for NZ/AUS/SA of course), but now England, Ireland and Scotland (possibly France too) have visibly upped their game. We have perhaps not gone backwards in absolute terms, but we have relatively - and in sport that's all that matters. We need to do what we've needed to do for years, develop our attack.

I agree ..our balance is not right at the right times. I beleive the players see these chances but either they have been told to supress these options or they dont have confidence we can execute them and either of those is worrying.

Howley was the attack coach and at present the interim head coach and has had the opportunity to develop this for a while..but what is there is innaccurate and poorly executed so that is normally the players responsibility ..but what did look wortying and is frustrating was that in the second half... in defence and attack we looked at odds with ourselves almost as badly as we did against Japan and Australia.

In NZ we looked as if we had started to turn the corner..not great...but on the right path..in the AI and 6N...we have not...what changed. Howley had the springboard of victories coming into the 6N to take the next step and that is now left down to the last two matches.

Ireland gives Howley the chance to do something differant with selection and an opportunity to experiment. The next few weeks will see if he takes it... but I really doubt it and that is what annoys me.

As for the rankings ...if we dont start the change now..we wont be worried about the World Cup at all except for a quick visit in the pool stages.

[Sandydragon]

I'll humour you, briefly. That one dimensional attack is, allegedly, trying to be changed to something more open. I agree with you in part that some players will struggle with this, Jamie Roberts for example. However, many of our backs are quite capable of playing a more open game - JD2 and Liam Williams have managed quite capably with the Scarlets.

Wales have a system and players are expected to play to it. If you dont think that the Welsh players can play to another style, I suggest you watch some Welsh regional rugby where many show plenty of evidence to the contrary.

2 from 23 . Thank you for making my point for me. I was referring to the players selected not possibles.

They aren't the only players from Scarlets in the back line never mind the 23. The Scarlets aren't the only team that plays in a different way to Gatland. You only think he made his point for you because as he said you don't watch any regional rugby.

Howley was never going to be - or going to be allowed to be - revolutionary. He's an interim head coach with no possibility of being kept on in the job and knowledge of exactly who is going to be taking over and exactly what their coaching methods are. Even if he were allowed to try to develop the team in a completely new direction for 9 months, would it be in the best interests of the team to take that completely new tack only to revert back?

This is true. The set up is Gatlands, the tactics are his and how much can Howley change on his own? Then again, this is his advert for the main role in his own right, so surely he can make some decisions? I don't think a complete change of tactics was ever on the cards, but Gatland has talked about developing our attacking options so there is some leeway for Howley. Im guessing that you don't watch ScrumV on a Sunday night? A point was made that after the Aussie game in the AIs, Howley reverted back to a closer game, but with new players (well Scott Williams vice ROberts) which is a bit pointless.

I would suggest that the Welsh players look confused.

[hawkaye]

It would help if they take the points - in 3 matches they have failed to keep the scoreboard moving by kicking penalties.
The intensity in the 2nd half against Scot was poor - looked as though they simply expected the game to turn their way without putting the work in - defensive line was slow and failed to disrupt Scottish possession. Spilling the ball so often is not the coach's fault. They showed enough in the first half to indicate what is possible. Players just did not turn up in the 2nd period. Don't blame the coach for the stupid penalties and poor decision taking on the pitch. AWJ should tell the kickers to get on with it. Really disappointing captaincy. Its the players on the pitch taking poor decisions. And can we get a few players with some real gas and the nous to get on the shoulder of the line breaker. The second half performance from Wales was crappppp - with the same coach as the 1st half which was ok.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The problem with the "rankings" excuse, is that it will always be true. You lose games, your ranking drops. Given a small player pool, no-one wants to "develop" under those conditions. You just try your damnedest to win, today, because there are essentially no games that you can "afford" to lose.

The coaches will gamble that the same 23 has a (slightly) better chance of scraping an ugly win against Ireland next time out, than an inexperienced selection based on raw talent and club form. They're probably right. They always will be probably right. Fringe players will stay on the fringe unless someone gets crocked. I don't see an easy way out of this cycle.

We might win a low scoring arm-wrestle with France but I just don't see us containing Ireland for 80 minutes. They WILL score several tries, so we need the players to score some of our own (more than one would be nice).

Our tedious defence-first, attack-second approach has often been enough for the Six Nations (not enough for NZ/AUS/SA of course), but now England, Ireland and Scotland (possibly France too) have visibly upped their game. We have perhaps not gone backwards in absolute terms, but we have relatively - and in sport that's all that matters. We need to do what we've needed to do for years, develop our attack.

I agree ..our balance is not right at the right times. I beleive the players see these chances but either they have been told to supress these options or they dont have confidence we can execute them and either of those is worrying.

Howley was the attack coach and at present the interim head coach and has had the opportunity to develop this for a while..but what is there is innaccurate and poorly executed so that is normally the players responsibility ..but what did look wortying and is frustrating was that in the second half... in defence and attack we looked at odds with ourselves almost as badly as we did against Japan and Australia.

In NZ we looked as if we had started to turn the corner..not great...but on the right path..in the AI and 6N...we have not...what changed. Howley had the springboard of victories coming into the 6N to take the next step and that is now left down to the last two matches.

Ireland gives Howley the chance to do something differant with selection and an opportunity to experiment. The next few weeks will see if he takes it... but I really doubt it and that is what annoys me.

As for the rankings ...if we dont start the change now..we wont be worried about the World Cup at all except for a quick visit in the pool stages.

Yes, I agree about the rankings (we managed fine in the group of death last time ), but I can afford to take a long-term view. Tragically, Howley's main objective now is to stay in the top 8, otherwise Gatland and the WRU will be seriously unahappy.

There's still reason to make changes though because IMO we won't beat Ireland playing as we have been. We simply won't score enough points.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It would help if they take the points - in 3 matches they have failed to keep the scoreboard moving by kicking penalties.
The intensity in the 2nd half against Scot was poor - looked as though they simply expected the game to turn their way without putting the work in - defensive line was slow and failed to disrupt Scottish possession. Spilling the ball so often is not the coach's fault. They showed enough in the first half to indicate what is possible. Players just did not turn up in the 2nd period. Don't blame the coach for the stupid penalties and poor decision taking on the pitch. AWJ should tell the kickers to get on with it. Really disappointing captaincy. Its the players on the pitch taking poor decisions. And can we get a few players with some real gas and the nous to get on the shoulder of the line breaker. The second half performance from Wales was crappppp - with the same coach as the 1st half which was ok.

That kicking to the corner decision was weird, and AWJ was very sheepish about it in the press conference. It really looked like Biggar thought we should go for the corner & the try and he changed AWJ's mind. But AWJ captains Biggar all the time, surely he knows how to deal with him??