How did they get capped?

[Lizard]

I’ve pilfered this idea from the Scotland board. What’s the worst possible All Blacks XV made up of players in their regular position* with at least one starting cap (in that position) over the last 10 years?

Here’s my effort so far:

1. J. Mackintosh
2. J. Parsons
3. N. Tialata
4. I. Ross
5. G. Rawlinson
6. R. Thorne (c)
7. D. Braid
8. S. Lauaki
9. A. Mathewson
10. M. Delaney
11. R. Wulf
12. B. Stanley
13. T. Ellison
14. A. Tuitavake
15. L. MacDonald**


*Meaning they must have started more tests in their nominated position than in any other position.
** This may seem harsh on a 56 cap veteran, but the only other qualifying players are Muliaina, Dagg and Ben Smith. All other starting FBs since 13.07.2007 have started more often in other positions (Toeava, Barrett, Evans, Jane, Slade) apart from Damian McKenzie who is brilliant but only had the one start.

[Cameo]

Did Ben Artigarvan not get a cap? He must be up there

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Did you not cap Aled De Malmanche to stop the Welsh getting their grubby mitts on him?

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Ross Filipo also an option at lock but i'd say Rawlinson and Ross are comfortably worse.

[Lizard]

De Malmanche was capped but never started a test, so is ineligible on my criteria.

I was torn between Isaac Ross and Ross Filipo. Isaac won out as he was selected more, and didn;t seem to have the self-awareness of Filipo who cleary knew he was a bit lucky and enjoyed himself accordingly.

I'm not sure who Cameo means by Artigarvan? Auto-correct for Ben Atiga? If so he's in the same camp as ADM.

[Cameo]

De Malmanche was capped but never started a test, so is ineligible on my criteria.

I was torn between Isaac Ross and Ross Filipo. Isaac won out as he was selected more, and didn;t seem to have the self-awareness of Filipo who cleary knew he was a bit lucky and enjoyed himself accordingly.

I'm not sure who Cameo means by Artigarvan? Auto-correct for Ben Atiga? If so he's in the same camp as ADM.

Yeah sorry my autocorrect is playing havoc. Knew Artiga was sold to us as a capped All Black but didn't know if he had started. To be fair I would have been excited by him signing anyway as I remember him being hyped up at an u20 world cup when I was at school

[Lizard]

Yeah sorry my autocorrect is playing havoc. Knew Artiga was sold to us as a capped All Black but didn't know if he had started. To be fair I would have been excited by him signing anyway as I remember him being hyped up at an u20 world cup when I was at school

That's secondhand car salesmanship at its best. His entire test playing career involved 5 minutes off the bench against Tonga in a RWC pool match during which the score advanced from 84-7 to 91-7.

[Banquo]

Atiga is one of those cases where

1) He was decent enough to warrant a look, but not at a World Cup
2) He was better than being used as a pawn in a private spat between the coach(es) and Cullen

what was the deal with Cullen? Probably my favourite player of the modern era

[Banquo]

Atiga is one of those cases where

1) He was decent enough to warrant a look, but not at a World Cup
2) He was better than being used as a pawn in a private spat between the coach(es) and Cullen

what was the deal with Cullen? Probably my favourite player of the modern era

Cullen was seen as too much of a maverick, and he and Mitchell just never seemed to care much for each other. Cullen was injured out of the 2001 EOYT, but Mitchell went out of his way to designate him "dropped," (whic carries a financial repurcussion for the players), and he generally drifted in and out of the 2002 teams before being overlooked in 2003 entirely for being "too individualistic."

Interpersonal skills has never been a strong suit of Mitchell or Deans, so I'd imagine there's a fair share of the blame that can be left at their doorstep over how that turned out - case in point Mitchell's disgraceful treatment of Anton Oliver, where he was seemingly publicly singled out for criticism by the coaches (Graham Henry and Steve Hansen have handled similar situations with far more grace and decency, with Henry in particular noted for privately providing detailed feedback and feed forward to the dropped player rather than any sort of public excoriation of them).

Cheers; even before then I thought he was being dicked about (around the 99 RWC?), being played at centre when clearly not a position that suited him, and wing iirc. Presumably to accommodate Wilson's wishes?

[Timmyspicyman]

How many caps did Neemai Tialata get? I seem to remember him being in several match day 22s in the 00's

[rowan]

Atiga is one of those cases where

1) He was decent enough to warrant a look, but not at a World Cup
2) He was better than being used as a pawn in a private spat between the coach(es) and Cullen

what was the deal with Cullen? Probably my favourite player of the modern era

Cullen was seen as too much of a maverick, and he and Mitchell just never seemed to care much for each other. Cullen was injured out of the 2001 EOYT, but Mitchell went out of his way to designate him "dropped," (whic carries a financial repurcussion for the players), and he generally drifted in and out of the 2002 teams before being overlooked in 2003 entirely for being "too individualistic."

Interpersonal skills has never been a strong suit of Mitchell or Deans, so I'd imagine there's a fair share of the blame that can be left at their doorstep over how that turned out - case in point Mitchell's disgraceful treatment of Anton Oliver, where he was seemingly publicly singled out for criticism by the coaches (Graham Henry and Steve Hansen have handled similar situations with far more grace and decency, with Henry in particular noted for privately providing detailed feedback and feed forward to the dropped player rather than any sort of public excoriation of them).

I interviewed Cullen a few times, and hung out with him and Tana and Bull Allen one time at a sports awards evening. Among the major highlights of my rugby reporting career, in fact. & I'd rate them 3 of the nicest blokes you'd ever wish to meet. The following year it was an Auckland prop who shall remain nameless because he was an arrogant sod who just sat there like the sultan among his subjects. Come to think of it, Bull Allen might have been the only representative prop I met who I did like But getting back to Cullen, he was very quiet and unassuming, though I have no insight into whatever disagreements he may have had with coaches.

[Lizard]

How many caps did Neemai Tialata get? I seem to remember him being in several match day 22s in the 00's

43 tests, 24 start over 6 seasons. I'm staggered it's that many.

[rowan]

How many caps did Neemai Tialata get? I seem to remember him being in several match day 22s in the 00's

43 tests, 24 start over 6 seasons. I'm staggered it's that many.

That's 34 more tests than George Nepia played for the All Blacks, 29 more than Waka Nathan, and 9 more even than Stu Wilson! & all those guys were enduring legends who remain household names in New Zealand today...

[rowan]

Funny how the mind works. Stu Wilson's generation - including guys like Haden, Mexted, Cowboy and the 'geriatric' front row, along with backline stars Loveridge, Smith, Hewson and, of course, the other half of the Ebony & Ivory duo Bernie Fraser - seemed to go on forever to me, because that was the era I grew up in. I was just a kid in short pants when most of them made their All Blacks debuts, but by the time the last of them retired I was already a budding young reporter doing the rounds at Wellington club rugby. Then the World Cup generation took over - quite suddenly, in fact - and that era seemed to last a fair while too, though it pretty much petered out just four years later following the disaster at the next RWC in 1991; notwithstanding a few stayers like Zinny & Fitzpatrick who were still around in 95, when Lomu exploded onto the world stage. But since the turn of the century it's all been a blur and most players' careers barely seem to have started before I'm reading about their retirement. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact I've been overseas and somewhat removed from the scene, but it is mostly about perceptions of time and how much quicker it seems to go by as you get older.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

what was the deal with Cullen? Probably my favourite player of the modern era

Cullen was seen as too much of a maverick, and he and Mitchell just never seemed to care much for each other. Cullen was injured out of the 2001 EOYT, but Mitchell went out of his way to designate him "dropped," (whic carries a financial repurcussion for the players), and he generally drifted in and out of the 2002 teams before being overlooked in 2003 entirely for being "too individualistic."

Interpersonal skills has never been a strong suit of Mitchell or Deans, so I'd imagine there's a fair share of the blame that can be left at their doorstep over how that turned out - case in point Mitchell's disgraceful treatment of Anton Oliver, where he was seemingly publicly singled out for criticism by the coaches (Graham Henry and Steve Hansen have handled similar situations with far more grace and decency, with Henry in particular noted for privately providing detailed feedback and feed forward to the dropped player rather than any sort of public excoriation of them).

Cheers; even before then I thought he was being dicked about (around the 99 RWC?), being played at centre when clearly not a position that suited him, and wing iirc. Presumably to accommodate Wilson's wishes?

It was more to do with getting Wilson, Lomu, Umaga and Cullen on the pitch together nothing to do with what Wilson wanted. Cullen had played 13 in his career admittedly at a younger age. Problem was they didn't give him a go at 13 early enough. Cullens a good bugger imo.

[canta_brian]

Cullen was seen as too much of a maverick, and he and Mitchell just never seemed to care much for each other. Cullen was injured out of the 2001 EOYT, but Mitchell went out of his way to designate him "dropped," (whic carries a financial repurcussion for the players), and he generally drifted in and out of the 2002 teams before being overlooked in 2003 entirely for being "too individualistic."

Interpersonal skills has never been a strong suit of Mitchell or Deans, so I'd imagine there's a fair share of the blame that can be left at their doorstep over how that turned out - case in point Mitchell's disgraceful treatment of Anton Oliver, where he was seemingly publicly singled out for criticism by the coaches (Graham Henry and Steve Hansen have handled similar situations with far more grace and decency, with Henry in particular noted for privately providing detailed feedback and feed forward to the dropped player rather than any sort of public excoriation of them).

Cheers; even before then I thought he was being dicked about (around the 99 RWC?), being played at centre when clearly not a position that suited him, and wing iirc. Presumably to accommodate Wilson's wishes?

It was more to do with getting Wilson, Lomu, Umaga and Cullen on the pitch together nothing to do with what Wilson wanted. Cullen had played 13 in his career admittedly at a younger age. Problem was they didn't give him a go at 13 early enough. Cullens a good bugger imo.

Mitchell and Martin Johnson were both too young to coach the national team. They were picking from contemporaries and that's never good. Johnson picked his mates for too long. Mitchell seemed to have issues with picking anyone who had shown him up as a journeyman during his provincial career. The spat with Cullen and the refusal to pick an in form Andrew Merhtens for the 2003 world cup cost NZ dearly.

So to get back on topic, should it be Mitchell or Hart for coach of this mob?

[rowan]

Hart was grossly overrated and extremely arrogant. His Auckland team were fulltimers competing against amateurs and his successors were just as successful as he was. He was then made an unwelcome co-coach of the 1991 World Cup squad after a few hiccups under Grizz, where his brash attitude had the effect of creating a division between the Aucks and the rest. Failing to get the All Blacks job afterward, he spent the early 90s doing TV commentaries and sniping at rival Laurie Mains, who was actually very unfortunate not to win the 1995 World Cup. Of course, the dominating Auckland media were behind their man all the way and Harty eventually got the top job all to himself, only to fail disastrously when it mattered most. Ultimately he had been lucky to be the right man in the right place at the right time with the Auckland shamateurs, but his coaching limitations were ruthlessly exposed on a more level playing field at international level. He may not have been the worst coach the All Blacks ever had, but he was certainly the most overrated, among the most arrogant and justifiably one of the most unforigven.

[Banquo]

Cullen was seen as too much of a maverick, and he and Mitchell just never seemed to care much for each other. Cullen was injured out of the 2001 EOYT, but Mitchell went out of his way to designate him "dropped," (whic carries a financial repurcussion for the players), and he generally drifted in and out of the 2002 teams before being overlooked in 2003 entirely for being "too individualistic."

Interpersonal skills has never been a strong suit of Mitchell or Deans, so I'd imagine there's a fair share of the blame that can be left at their doorstep over how that turned out - case in point Mitchell's disgraceful treatment of Anton Oliver, where he was seemingly publicly singled out for criticism by the coaches (Graham Henry and Steve Hansen have handled similar situations with far more grace and decency, with Henry in particular noted for privately providing detailed feedback and feed forward to the dropped player rather than any sort of public excoriation of them).

Cheers; even before then I thought he was being dicked about (around the 99 RWC?), being played at centre when clearly not a position that suited him, and wing iirc. Presumably to accommodate Wilson's wishes?

It was more to do with getting Wilson, Lomu, Umaga and Cullen on the pitch together nothing to do with what Wilson wanted. Cullen had played 13 in his career admittedly at a younger age. Problem was they didn't give him a go at 13 early enough. Cullens a good bugger imo.

Well given that Wilson and Lomu were both excellent wingers, and Umaga eventually an excellent centre, think they made the wrong call. I also note that later on, Wilson seemed to get to play 15 with Cullen misused on the wing. Always seemed ar5e about face to me.

[PoolerSaint]

Did you not cap Aled De Malmanche to stop the Welsh getting their grubby mitts on him?

Capped Aled & Bryn Evans due to Welsh interest I think.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

[rowan]

Not something I'm likely to get my hands on in Turkey, so any further clues as to the nature of said "insight" would be welcomed with relish

[rowan]

Interesting. I thought his whole coaching career was summed up by having Lomu score a try off the back of the scrum against France at the 99 RWC. I mean, how pretentious was that? Any back rower could have scored from that position; there was no need to use Lomu. Reminded me a little of Mike Ditka's controversial decision to give the last touchdown of the 86 Super Bowl to defensive lineman William 'the Fridge' Perry instead of one of his running backs. But the Bears had already won the game. Harty's All Blacks proceeded to crash out in a screaming heap as players out of position were found wanting in the 2nd half.

[Lizard]

Forgot to pull Liz up on this earlier, but Reuben Thorne at 6 in the OP is ridiculous. Thorne is quite possibly the single most underrated and undervalued (by supporters) players out of New Zealand since professionalism.

Bear in mind that the criteria is "in the last 10 years" so we're only considering Thorne's contribution in 2007.

In any event, you can't really criticise without nominating an alternative. Who would you say should be there?

[canta_brian]

Forgot to pull Liz up on this earlier, but Reuben Thorne at 6 in the OP is ridiculous. Thorne is quite possibly the single most underrated and undervalued (by supporters) players out of New Zealand since professionalism.

Bear in mind that the criteria is "in the last 10 years" so we're only considering Thorne's contribution in 2007.

In any event, you can't really criticise without nominating an alternative. Who would you say should be there?

I think Thorne was a better player than Adam Thomson. However neither were bad.

[Lizard]

Thomson was certainly on my shortlist, but there was no real trash to choose from.

[morepork]

Thomson was certainly on my shortlist, but there was no real trash to choose from.

Oh yes.