GOAT - The eternal debate

[Which Tyler]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

[Lizard]

Ha ha. Opened this thread ready to die on Bradman hill...

[Stom]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

On golf not being affected by fitness, the recent rise of De Chambeau probably puts paid to that idea. He's shot up the rankings with a focus on KPIs and data, and that includes a lot of work on strength and fitness. It's no surprise Woods was the best for so long as he was the fittest, it just wasn't really codified: no-one wanted to talk about it because most golfers are unfit old men who don't want to hear that the best way to improve is to get fitter...

Just a side note there.

I also think it's really tough to judge across sports.

[Big D]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

Ha ha. Opened this thread ready to die on Bradman hill...

Bradman is undoubtedly a great, my one knock on him was that the competition he was up against. If I remember correctly he basically played England then a handful against each of South Africa, WIndies and India. The three latter teams were not of the quality they would later become.

I think golf should count tbh.

Each of the people that come to mind Jordan, Woods, Bolt, Serena Williams, Ali, Phelps, Bradman and others all have good cases for and against.

[Stom]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

Ha ha. Opened this thread ready to die on Bradman hill...

Bradman is undoubtedly a great, my one knock on him was that the competition he was up against. If I remember correctly he basically played England then a handful against each of South Africa, WIndies and India. The three latter teams were not of the quality they would later become.

I think golf should count tbh.

Each of the people that come to mind Jordan, Woods, Bolt, Serena Williams, Ali, Phelps, Bradman and others all have good cases for and against.

What about motorsport, though? Schumacher, Hamilton, Valentino Rossi, Senna?

You said Serena Williams, but what about Federer, or Navratilova, or Graff?

Boxing? Louis, Ali, Mayweather?

[Big D]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

Ha ha. Opened this thread ready to die on Bradman hill...

Bradman is undoubtedly a great, my one knock on him was that the competition he was up against. If I remember correctly he basically played England then a handful against each of South Africa, WIndies and India. The three latter teams were not of the quality they would later become.

I think golf should count tbh.

Each of the people that come to mind Jordan, Woods, Bolt, Serena Williams, Ali, Phelps, Bradman and others all have good cases for and against.

What about motorsport, though? Schumacher, Hamilton, Valentino Rossi, Senna?

You said Serena Williams, but what about Federer, or Navratilova, or Graff?

Boxing? Louis, Ali, Mayweather?

Motor sport is a hard one, the best drivers end up in the best cars/bikes and that does play a big part.

I don't think any of those tennis players were really as dominant as Williams. She held all 4 slams at the same time twice, has an 85% career win percentage and has 4 Olympic golds.

I had Ali on my list.

[Stom]

Bradman is undoubtedly a great, my one knock on him was that the competition he was up against. If I remember correctly he basically played England then a handful against each of South Africa, WIndies and India. The three latter teams were not of the quality they would later become.

I think golf should count tbh.

Each of the people that come to mind Jordan, Woods, Bolt, Serena Williams, Ali, Phelps, Bradman and others all have good cases for and against.

What about motorsport, though? Schumacher, Hamilton, Valentino Rossi, Senna?

You said Serena Williams, but what about Federer, or Navratilova, or Graff?

Boxing? Louis, Ali, Mayweather?

Motor sport is a hard one, the best drivers end up in the best cars/bikes and that does play a big part.

I don't think any of those tennis players were really as dominant as Williams. She held all 4 slams at the same time twice, has an 85% career win percentage and has 4 Olympic golds.

I had Ali on my list.

It's hard to judge though, as to me the standard of women's tennis over the past decade has been pretty poor. As shown by the fact the rankings change so often. There's no-one stand out at all, they're all a bit meh. When the Williams sisters first broke through there was a real competition at the top of the women's rankings, now it just feels like a procession through more and more identikit names...

Whereas Federer won against 2 of the other contenders for top 10 men ever, and one for the top 25. How many of this generation of women could you say the same for?

Not to say Williams isn't the GOAT at women's tennis, but GOAT across sports? It's hard to justify considering the competition.

But it brings us back to the same question again...it's kinda impossible to judge across eras, nevermind sports!

[Which Tyler]

Personally, I like to short-list things by GOAT candidates by sport (that I'm familiar enough with to venture an opinion). Of course, there are always further provisos beyond that, of recency bias will always play a role...

Rugby: Gareth Edwards the most talented, Lomu the most influential (honourable mentions for McCaw, Carter, Alphonsi and Porta - as this is a rugby forum)
Tennis: Federer the most talented; Nadal and Serena the best athletes who played tennis.
Sprinting: Bolt the most talented, Owens the most influential
Running: Zatopek or Semenya
Gymnastics: Comaneci or Biles
Motorsport: Senna (winning with inferior machinery)
Cricket (after Bradman): Warne or Sachin
Rowing: Redgrave
Multi-sport: Jim Thorpe or Carl Lewis
American sports: Gretzky > Brady/Jordan


Cheeky add for my favourite WTF trivia: Fanny Blankers-Koen (google her!)

Beyond that, and I'm out of my comfort zone (TBH, I'm out of it with the American sports category already)

[Big D]

What about motorsport, though? Schumacher, Hamilton, Valentino Rossi, Senna?

You said Serena Williams, but what about Federer, or Navratilova, or Graff?

Boxing? Louis, Ali, Mayweather?

Motor sport is a hard one, the best drivers end up in the best cars/bikes and that does play a big part.

I don't think any of those tennis players were really as dominant as Williams. She held all 4 slams at the same time twice, has an 85% career win percentage and has 4 Olympic golds.

I had Ali on my list.

It's hard to judge though, as to me the standard of women's tennis over the past decade has been pretty poor. As shown by the fact the rankings change so often. There's no-one stand out at all, they're all a bit meh. When the Williams sisters first broke through there was a real competition at the top of the women's rankings, now it just feels like a procession through more and more identikit names...

Whereas Federer won against 2 of the other contenders for top 10 men ever, and one for the top 25. How many of this generation of women could you say the same for?

Not to say Williams isn't the GOAT at women's tennis, but GOAT across sports? It's hard to justify considering the competition.

But it brings us back to the same question again...it's kinda impossible to judge across eras, nevermind sports!

Really not intending on dying on Williams hill but, she is won in 3 different decades. V Williams is definitely top 6 or 7. Hingis and Henin are borderline top 10 and I reckon Davenport, Sharapova and Cljisters would be top 20. Graff, Seles and Capriati etc were still playing when Williams started winning slams (many of them for a good few years). The reason the womans game looked as poor was because she (and her sister) was so far ahead, similar to Woods in golf IMO.

Federer has a poor record in slam finals v Nadal (3-6) and Djokovic , his first 7 wins were against good if not top players (Agassi a legend but past his prime).

It is so hard to judge but she deserves to be in the conversation.

[Puja]

So, who's the second greatest sportsman of all time?

Don Bradman is the greatest, and that's beyond discussion, so who's second.

For the purposes of this, sport can be defined as "game or activity where any improvement in skill/technique will improve performance, and any improvement in physical strength/fitness will improve performance"

So snooker, cards, darts etc are not affected by fitness, Motorsport is, golf probably isn't.

Of course, it's a pointless discussion with no right answer, and we'll all bring our own biases. Thes discussions are generally fun, and I generally learn things from these discussions.

Ha ha. Opened this thread ready to die on Bradman hill...

Bradman is undoubtedly a great, my one knock on him was that the competition he was up against. If I remember correctly he basically played England then a handful against each of South Africa, WIndies and India. The three latter teams were not of the quality they would later become.

I think golf should count tbh.

Each of the people that come to mind Jordan, Woods, Bolt, Serena Williams, Ali, Phelps, Bradman and others all have good cases for and against.

What about motorsport, though? Schumacher, Hamilton, Valentino Rossi, Senna?

You said Serena Williams, but what about Federer, or Navratilova, or Graff?

Boxing? Louis, Ali, Mayweather?

Fangio is the GOAT of motorsport. His sheer wins/races ratio, plus being up against some stellar names, in an era before almost every driver aid.

Puja

[Stom]

Motor sport is a hard one, the best drivers end up in the best cars/bikes and that does play a big part.

I don't think any of those tennis players were really as dominant as Williams. She held all 4 slams at the same time twice, has an 85% career win percentage and has 4 Olympic golds.

I had Ali on my list.

It's hard to judge though, as to me the standard of women's tennis over the past decade has been pretty poor. As shown by the fact the rankings change so often. There's no-one stand out at all, they're all a bit meh. When the Williams sisters first broke through there was a real competition at the top of the women's rankings, now it just feels like a procession through more and more identikit names...

Whereas Federer won against 2 of the other contenders for top 10 men ever, and one for the top 25. How many of this generation of women could you say the same for?

Not to say Williams isn't the GOAT at women's tennis, but GOAT across sports? It's hard to justify considering the competition.

But it brings us back to the same question again...it's kinda impossible to judge across eras, nevermind sports!

Really not intending on dying on Williams hill but, she is won in 3 different decades. V Williams is definitely top 6 or 7. Hingis and Henin are borderline top 10 and I reckon Davenport, Sharapova and Cljisters would be top 20. Graff, Seles and Capriati etc were still playing when Williams started winning slams (many of them for a good few years). The reason the womans game looked as poor was because she (and her sister) was so far ahead, similar to Woods in golf IMO.

Federer has a poor record in slam finals v Nadal (3-6) and Djokovic , his first 7 wins were against good if not top players (Agassi a legend but past his prime).

It is so hard to judge but she deserves to be in the conversation.

Oh, I'm not ragging on her at all, she's an absolute contender, but...

It's stupidly hard to judge, as Puja then points out by naming a completely new name in the conversation...

[switchskier]

Ab endearingly impossible debate, but for me anyone would have to change the sport, not just dominate. Therefore Michael Jordan is the standout contender. Not only was he dominant on the court but he changed the way the game was played and took basketball into a completely different stratosphere financially and in terms of popularity.

If it wasn't for the cheating then Lance Armstrong would have been in here too, but that one was too good to be true.

[Digby]

The thing about Bradman having it easy is that nobody else in that time period came close to matching his record either. Not quite sure who I'd pick right at the top though, someone like Ed Moses had an amazing career in terms of looking after himself, maintaining standards and even advancing standards as would someone like Sergey Bubka breaking all those records (though of course Bubka knew he'd get paid more for lots of incremental increases rather than smashing the record early doors), arguments against Bubka and Moses would come from what was the competition like. On which basis I perhaps end up opting for Federer, to do what he's done when we'd just had Sampras and thought well nobody's going to match that for a long time and then not just match it but go marching past in the era of Djokevic and Nadal (and strong support acts like Murray) is astonishing. Those two finals played in back to back seasons at SW19 against Nadal might be the best two game return feature I can think of in sport, okay it slightly undermines the case he lost one of them, but the standard in both was extraordinary, Federer hasn't just had his own amazing career he's forced two of the other top players to amazing heights also, and done it in amazing style (the on court stuff not the off court RF flimflam) and he's taken his losses with dignity

[Stom]

The thing about Bradman having it easy is that nobody else in that time period came close to matching his record either. Not quite sure who I'd pick right at the top though, someone like Ed Moses had an amazing career in terms of looking after himself, maintaining standards and even advancing standards as would someone like Sergey Bubka breaking all those records (though of course Bubka knew he'd get paid more for lots of incremental increases rather than smashing the record early doors), arguments against Bubka and Moses would come from what was the competition like. On which basis I perhaps end up opting for Federer, to do what he's done when we'd just had Sampras and thought well nobody's going to match that for a long time and then not just match it but go marching past in the era of Djokevic and Nadal (and strong support acts like Murray) is astonishing. Those two finals played in back to back seasons at SW19 against Nadal might be the best two game return feature I can think of in sport, okay it slightly undermines the case he lost one of them, but the standard in both was extraordinary, Federer hasn't just had his own amazing career he's forced two of the other top players to amazing heights also, and done it in amazing style (the on court stuff not the off court RF flimflam) and he's taken his losses with dignity

One of those matches, I was sitting on "Henman Hill/Murray Mound", and it was crackling. An absolute epic of a game of tennis, and for that alone, Federer will always hold a spot in my heart.

There's not many sporting occasions that stick in the memory quite so much. Strangely the other one is a game most Quins fans want to forget: Bloodgate. That was a match and a half and the 2 standout players were BOD and Mikey Brown. Those two were just everywhere. I'd actually put BOD in this conversation. His defence and ruck work was really something else at the time and really paved the way for a different type of centre, even if he started life as a traditional outside break artist (albeit a very good one).

[Donny osmond]

No one has mentioned Wayne Gretzky? Simone Biles? Phelps?

Probably Biles for me, certainly the greatest sportsperson of my lifetime, with Jordan a close 2nd. S Williams, Gretzky, Tiger Woods in the mix.

I hardly watch any American sports either...?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[Which Tyler]

No one has mentioned Wayne Gretzky? Simone Biles? Phelps?

Probably Biles for me, certainly the greatest sportsperson of my lifetime, with Jordan a close 2nd. S Williams, Gretzky, Tiger Woods in the mix.

I hardly watch any American sports either...?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Yes, I mentioned Gretzky and Biles; I didn't go into swimming, but I'm not convinced that Phelps was better than Spitz or Thorpe.
I also find it hard to place swimmers in these things as there are just so many medals available to 1 person in a single meet.

[Big D]

One of those matches, I was sitting on "Henman Hill/Murray Mound", and it was crackling. An absolute epic of a game of tennis, and for that alone, Federer will always hold a spot in my heart.

That is the magic of sport isn't it, bloody brilliant. We are all impacted by what we see and feel as we watch it. That is why Sir Chris Hoy will always be high up my own personal "greatest" lists because watching him left an impression. Especially the Kerin at London.

[Puja]

No one has mentioned Wayne Gretzky? Simone Biles? Phelps?

Probably Biles for me, certainly the greatest sportsperson of my lifetime, with Jordan a close 2nd. S Williams, Gretzky, Tiger Woods in the mix.

I hardly watch any American sports either...?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

This popped up on my Facebook feed today:

Capture.jpg

Puja

[Donny osmond]

No one has mentioned Wayne Gretzky? Simone Biles? Phelps?

Probably Biles for me, certainly the greatest sportsperson of my lifetime, with Jordan a close 2nd. S Williams, Gretzky, Tiger Woods in the mix.

I hardly watch any American sports either...?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Yes, I mentioned Gretzky and Biles; I didn't go into swimming, but I'm not convinced that Phelps was better than Spitz or Thorpe.
I also find it hard to place swimmers in these things as there are just so many medals available to 1 person in a single meet.

Sorry, didn't see! I agree about swimmers I think.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[Donny osmond]

No one has mentioned Wayne Gretzky? Simone Biles? Phelps?

Probably Biles for me, certainly the greatest sportsperson of my lifetime, with Jordan a close 2nd. S Williams, Gretzky, Tiger Woods in the mix.

I hardly watch any American sports either...?

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

This popped up on my Facebook feed today:

Capture.jpg

Puja

Interesting about Biles there. Notably not a statistic as the first poster asked for, more a fact about why she's possibly the goat sportsperson. Also interesting take on Brady... without wishing to talk him down, the Superbowl last weekend was clearly won by Tampa's defence, not by his offence, as good as that was. His fans will talk about his effect on the whole organisation, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Tampa won as soon as he showed up... but that's heresay and not, if I'm being pedantic, a statistic. I've read somewhere that with Gretzky, if you took away all the goals he scored, he would still have more points than any other hockey player due to all the assists etc. Now that's a statistic.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[Puja]

Saw this today: Simone Biles inventing a new gymnastics move that no-one else can do, simply because she can and she wants to. Set of videos showing her progress from first attempts to pulling it out perfectly in competition - she is utterly ridiculous.



Puja

[morepork]

Extraordinary power and grace. Sweet jebus.

[Digby]

It's not inventing a new move mind, more copying an existing move.

[Numbers]

Julio Cesar Chavez ranks up there in the boxing for me, 115 fights, 107 wins, this is unprecedented in the modern era.

[Numbers]

For Athletics we have:

Moses
Bolt
Selassi
Edwards
Tirunesh Dibaba