Reputations

[Mr Mwenda]

Who has impressed/disappointed on this lions tour? I realise some players may turn this around.

Winners:
Price has seized his chance.
Itoje continues to build his legend.
Jones continues to have an amazing engine.

Meh:
Most of the English players seem to have been adequate or at least the level I expected.
Biggar saw of alternatives.
Conan and Furlong have done their bit whilst not dominating.

Losers:
Murray seems to have declined dramatically.
Van Der merve seems to have justifiably cast aside by SA.
Hogg and Sutherland have had a rough old time of it.
Daly, I can't really remember why he seems to get shoehorned into every side I watch.
The lions concept has surely taken a hit. I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

[Mellsblue]

I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

Did you not watch the World Cup final?!?!?

[Mr Mwenda]

I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

Did you not watch the World Cup final?!?!?

I stormed off on 60 minutes. In any case at least Kolbe was running that day...

[Numbers]

I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

Did you not watch the World Cup final?!?!?

Did you not watch the World Cup semi final?

[Mellsblue]

I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

Did you not watch the World Cup final?!?!?

Did you not watch the World Cup semi final?

Yes but which one are you referring to? The one we won or the one you lost?

[Mikey Brown]

Hmm. I find it hard to put all that on the players to be honest.

Did we not know Murray is slowing considerably these days? Are Hogg/Watson famed for fielding high kicks amongst a sea of disrupters and unsupportive team-mates? Has Daly ever looked good at the top level in any position except wing? Did we think VDM has the agility and aerial game to be effective playing a back and forth kick-chase game whilst never getting the ball? (You're right to say he wouldn't suit SA, for the same reasons, but he can clearly be a real weapon at international level if used correctly.)

Did Biggar 'see off' his alternatives or was he only competing against an injured Finn Russell and the ghost of Owen Farrell?

Curry has underwhelmed for me, after a pretty patchy 6 nations, but I don't think he's judged by the normal standards for a 23 year old forward. Watson definitely a loser from the perspective of where he finished the 6 nations.

Disappointed for the Scottish props. They've both come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of seasons and then just looked a little lost when it came to the Lions. Faletau is so good that I expect him to bounce back, but surely his reputation has taken a knock. Wyn Jones has the opportunity to become an overnight Lions legend if he can make a significant impact on Saturday.

Smith and LRZ probably big winners in the longer term you'd think. Neither could feel too aggrieved at missing out, and have hopefully learned a whole lot.

Beard must surely feel he's a winner, somehow making the bench as a tour replacement for a guy who is in the starting team, with Henderson available and Ryan/Gray at home.

[jngf]

Very much think after the 3rd game we’ll be better able to answer this question - for some players at least.

E.g for me Alan Wyn Jones and Itoje have significantly lacked ball carrying impact as a unit (compared to boks Locks ditto our starting back row - Lawes carries in 2nd half of first test aside) - if Lions pull off a 2nd win however all the above will be lauded as conquering heroes and Gatland’s starting selections in the back 5 of the pack (4 of which I wouldn’t have selected myself based on quality of other players available in squad) will be vindicated in the sense of it’s the win that counts.
Do agree that the stylistic quality of the rugby on show has been stodgy in the extreme and I expect more of the same if Eddie Jones fancies a crack at coaching the Lions

[Spiffy]

For me the major disappointments were that several players who probably deserved a significant run against the Boks did not get one (e.g. Henderson; Hamish Watson ( limited time off the bench in the first test, then dropped); Beirne (probably the best all-round back rower) with a total of something like 18 mins in two tests, then dropped; Adams and LRZ - both better wings than DVDM (LRZ's defence is not nearly as bad as made out); Russell (though he was injured at a crucial time); Davies (an underrated SH, a real nuisance and probably the best sniper of the three); prop Wynn Jones (again injury); hooker George, of proven test match ability.
The total lack of any positive input from the experienced and ever-hyped Farrell (though he's now been rightly dropped.)
Also the absence of traditional, footballing, inventive centres. Henshaw tried valiantly and is probably the Lions best back, but often looks like a one man band with little support.

[whatisthejava]

Again, Gatland decided on a style 12 years ago and didn’t give a fuck about anything. He wanted his legacy.

It sounds harsh but that style got him and his teams some serious medals. I think England losing in RWC and 6N really didn’t help him

[Banquo]

For me the major disappointments were that several players who probably deserved a significant run against the Boks did not get one (e.g. Henderson; Hamish Watson ( limited time off the bench in the first test, then dropped); Beirne (probably the best all-round back rower) with a total of something like 18 mins in two tests, then dropped; Adams and LRZ - both better wings than DVDM (LRZ's defence is not nearly as bad as made out); Russell (though he was injured at a crucial time); Davies (an underrated SH, a real nuisance and probably the best sniper of the three); prop Wynn Jones (again injury); hooker George, of proven test match ability.
The total lack of any positive input from the experienced and ever-hyped Farrell (though he's now been rightly dropped.)
Also the absence of traditional, footballing, inventive centres. Henshaw tried valiantly and is probably the Lions best back, but often looks like a one man band with little support.

Who else could he have picked in the centres though?

[Numbers]

Did you not watch the World Cup final?!?!?

Did you not watch the World Cup semi final?

Yes but which one are you referring to? The one we won or the one you lost?

The one we lost by 3 points.

[Digby]

Which actually would be the worst game, one of the first 2 Lions games on this tour or that SA Vs Wales semi?

[Big D]

Who has impressed/disappointed on this lions tour? I realise some players may turn this around.


Losers:
Murray seems to have declined dramatically.
Van Der merve seems to have justifiably cast aside by SA.
Hogg and Sutherland have had a rough old time of it.
Daly, I can't really remember why he seems to get shoehorned into every side I watch.
The lions concept has surely taken a hit. I think that any of the home nations would have made a better fist of things in the second test.

From a Scots POV it has been good seeing Price do well.

For Duhan, a loser in the eyes of the public possibly. But he is doing the job the coaches have asked of him, which is what he is sent out to do and will keep him in their good graces (and he has already signed his Worcs deal so wont hurt him financially).
SA have made zero catches across the two tests when the kick has been contested by him.

I don't think anyone likes it, including him, but he is doing what is asked. I am glad Adams will get his deserved test cap.


Sutherland will be fine, in hindsight it is quite a big ask to go from no rugby since March to play the Springboks even with diddy warm up games. Would love him to have done better but it wasn't to be.

Hogg particularly of all players needs saved from himself. He has long said he doesn't want or like rests but has been playing like a busted flush since the 6N. If there are enforced rests after the tour I'd expect a better version of Hogg next season.

[Sandydragon]

Hogg is another of those highly talented players who never really made it happen with the lions. Shane Williams was another. It’s a shame for them and the supporters who want them to do well but Lions tours often throw up players who do better than expected and those who fail to perform. And sadly with the modern tour there’s no way to reclaim lost ground after a poor performance.

[morepork]

Gatland is protecting his winning percentage as a coach at the expense of the game. That winning percentage won't get you the AB job fat boy, so why not let your players actually play?

[Spiffy]

Gatland is protecting his winning percentage as a coach at the expense of the game. That winning percentage won't get you the AB job fat boy, so why not let your players actually play?

The problem is that the players are now grooved into Gatball, with the non-thinking, play-by-numbers, kick the ball away approach. They parked their rugby brains at the start of the tour. Hard to see that they could instantly throw off the shackles and play inventive attacking rugby in the one-off last game, even if allowed.

[morepork]

Gatland is protecting his winning percentage as a coach at the expense of the game. That winning percentage won't get you the AB job fat boy, so why not let your players actually play?

The problem is that the players are now grooved into Gatball, with the non-thinking, play-by-numbers, kick the ball away approach. They parked their rugby brains at the start of the tour. Hard to see that they could instantly throw off the shackles and play inventive attacking rugby in the one-off last game, even if allowed.

I hope he doesn't reprogram Damien MacKenzie when he gets back.

[Puja]

Gatland is protecting his winning percentage as a coach at the expense of the game. That winning percentage won't get you the AB job fat boy, so why not let your players actually play?

The problem is that the players are now grooved into Gatball, with the non-thinking, play-by-numbers, kick the ball away approach. They parked their rugby brains at the start of the tour. Hard to see that they could instantly throw off the shackles and play inventive attacking rugby in the one-off last game, even if allowed.

I hope he doesn't reprogram Damien MacKenzie when he gets back.

Is he being allowed back? I'd got the impression that he was being moved on from the Chiefs after his impressive lack of anything resembling results, although I now can't find any reference to that, so I possible imagined it.

Puja

[morepork]

Pretty sure he is going to slide back on in, at least that is what the Chuffs website says. He will have a contract that protects that agreement, no doubt, but the post-Gatland transformation in the Waikato was pretty startling.

[Digby]

They only built on the foundations laid down by Gats

[Cameo]

Hogg is another of those highly talented players who never really made it happen with the lions. Shane Williams was another. It’s a shame for them and the supporters who want them to do well but Lions tours often throw up players who do better than expected and those who fail to perform. And sadly with the modern tour there’s no way to reclaim lost ground after a poor performance.

I may be biased here but I just don't see this tour as having done anything to effect his reputation. Solid enough in the first test and dropped a few in the second. His reputation is as an amazing attacking full back who runs himself and creates. He didn't get the opportunity to do either of these things and gave it a decent go at the impossible task he was given.

Williams then came in, was given more chances but didn't play well (despite being a very good player).