Fallout - When Hogg met Townsend

[whatisthejava]

Hey, i know a couple of people have mentioned this in the other threads, but I really think there is more to this than anyone has really discussed.

Tom English called it on the podcast directly after the game and said it was a message to the coach, but what was the message, in that podcast Hogg gets a lot of criticism and has done his reputation a lot of damage, (I think the criticism for butchering the try is a hot take and if Keenan hadn't done the tackle of the season no one would be questioning Hogg. )

Back on point, loads of things about this entire pubgate just hasn't sat right with me. These are in no particular order.

1. Hogg lives and breathes to be Scotland captain
2. Hogg is desperate to win the 6N, every loss rankles him, mistakes he has made haunt him
3. He was instrumental in Finn RussellGate and felt let down by Finn and spoke honestly about it a length
4. He is a senior leader in the core group, as is Russell and Price
5. The reporting of the incident - the language was odd
6. He has never had an incident like this (correct me if I'm wrong) but always trys to act professionally
7. The group that went out (weird that you had 3 senior leaders, Sione Tuipulotu, 1 newbie cap, Darcy Graham)
7.a Sam Jonnson is extremely shy by all accounts, pretty much came to Glasgow and didnt speak up for ages
7.b Sione is brand newto the team, why would he risk his future by alienating the manager, no one does this after a couple of caps
7.c Darcy G has finally put his family issues behind him and is pretty comfortable
8. I still have not found any pictures of the players out in Edinburgh, and have not seen one person tweet they were in the same pub
9. Which pub in Edinburgh is it that young guys go out to on a Saturday night you get phone signal (they came back as soon as they were called)
10. Not one forward fancied a pint - its weird its 6 backs right
11. Who informed the management ?


My initial take on this when I heard the names was this was a fake story, then when it was confirmed I thought it was a few mind tricks by the scotland camp to try and make the Irish feel complacent. That made no sense but the idea of Stu Hogg sneaking off to the pub just makes no sense. The guy knows he is a role model for Scotland , hunneds of kids so why risk his reputation for a sneaky pint.

Its pretty clear its an unhappy camp after the Ireland game but looking back I don't think its been a happy camp since the lions. In the Autumn we were trying new things and we came away with a 75% win rate , losing only to SA. The manner of defeat I think is key because I think it sets the scene for everything that has happened since.

I think post SA, the key leaders and townsend started talking about things they needed to change to compete for the title, I think SA really exposed a flaw in our game plan that no one had managed to exploit in the 6N by having an airtight defence)

I think the flaw is the one man jackal clear out, against SA it completely fucked up as they quite often just delayed the arriving player long enough to get the jackler set, last year Ireland, France and Wales were the three teams that exposed it but Ireland lacked the cutting edge, Wales were humpty and France were still building.

I think post SA the senior leaders and Toonie started talking about changing the style of the attack to try and deal with this flaw and Toonie rejected it.

Unlike every other previous Scotland coach Toonie has world-class players who have played with the best, are respected by the best and increasingly want more of a say in how the team plays and I think Toonie personally struggles with dealing with this. He wants to delegate responsibility and ownership but within a structure, he has defined and he wants a one-man clearout.

I think toony put his foot down and this annoyed Hogg and Russell (and the team), they know it doesn't work and won't work at the RWC and I think this led to both of them being rather frustrated in Wales when it was clear that the tactics wanted by Toonie were not working. This clearly wasn't resolved because the same issues happened against France and yesterday we constantly failed to deal with the jackeler.

I think the team reached a point where the message to the coach was, this is not working, I also think its been at least 6 months in the making as this feels very much like a - nothing else is working, so lets make a real statement.

Moving forward there will have to be changes, , the attack was awful, we consistently lost the ball against Ireland, wales and France and struggled to get beyond 3 - 5 phases because as soon as anyone gets slightly isolated we concede a penalty. I do think its a critical issue because Ireland always commit two men to the ruck and it really stymies your attack, but it must change as both SA and Ireland have our number.

I like our coaching setup Toonie is learning and adapting but I think its clear after finngate, pubgate, the miserable camp at the RWC and some stories from his warriors days he isn't a natural man manager, he needs training and coaching on how to manage world class talent and create an environment where they can excel in.

Hogg may well not be captain in the future but Toonie needs to have a serious think about how he allowed the situation to develop where his senior leaders decided that he wasn't listening anymore.

On to the summer, absence makes the hear grow fonder, I disagree with Peter Wright and all the lions should be rested, take a squad of 30 and use it to show the senior players your willing to adapt, otherwise guys will just start retiring or making themselves unavailable.

[whatisthejava]

I should say, it’s not the one man clear out that’s the crux of the issue, but the attack style that this is a symptom of.

[Big D]

On number 11, it was the team manager that allegedly advised them not to go and they did.

There is a lot people on their high horse about Hogg, but the anger has come because of the raised expectations and failure that followed. No one complained after Fagerson admitted some of his team mates ripped the arse out it after the England game. In fact plenty laughed about it. I get the covid implications but people always enjoy having a go at Hogg, Price and Finn (who clearly has a problematic relationship with booze). Of course they were wrong to do so but the media love a pile on. There is a lack of discipline throughout the team. A disciplined side would have had a few beers, called it quits and got on with the job at hand and beaten an average Welsh side.

I've always felt that the SRU needs a coaching pathway through to pro clubs then international coaching but the more this situation is playing out the more I think the Pro coaches need to go away and coach elsewhere before coming back to the national side.

Many of these guys senior guys have been coached by Townsend in some form every year for 10+ years it is natural for there to be some rough patches (if this really is a bigger issue). And it is natural to grow frustrated when there are no obvious changes in game plan that are actually helping against the teams in the 6N that we have always struggled with under Townsend (Wales and Ireland).

We are meandering to another world cup group stage exit. Which in itself may be expected but we should be at least ramping up to give it a good go.

[Big D]

And Hogg has to give that pass 100x out of 100. Inexcusable.

[whatisthejava]

Amd Hogg has to give that pass 100x out of 100. Inexcusable.

I can’t decide, how often does the covering tackler actually take the ball carrier out of play

[Big D]

Amd Hogg has to give that pass 100x out of 100. Inexcusable.

I can’t decide, how often does the covering tackler actually take the ball carrier out of play

Make the pass and it doesn't matter. It turned 7 points into maybe 5 and ultimately 0.

[septic 9]

Amd Hogg has to give that pass 100x out of 100. Inexcusable.

I can’t decide, how often does the covering tackler actually take the ball carrier out of play

Make the pass and it doesn't matter. It turned 7 points into maybe 5 and ultimately 0.

in the earlier game a 22 year old on his 2nd cap, his first start, playing in French 2nd div beat half the world and still had the sense and composure to make that final pass

[septic 9]

when Russell walked out last time, it was Hogg who called him out. The stupidity and hypocrisy of leading a group to the pub this time is staggering.

personally I always take the same stance - if its a stand off between the coach and a player or players, there can/should only be one winner. And its isn't the players.

The coach's head is on the block. The players will still play for their clubs whoever the national coach is. And should play for the national coach whoever that is. They are professionals. Paid well. If you anyone doesn't like the style, discuss, adapt or piss off.

[Cameo]

Interesting. I do think that there is something to it being symptomatic of wider frustration. If people are enjoying life they are more likely to push it. It also doesn't seem a very Hogg thing to do.

Having said that, the audio floating around answers some of your questions if it is genuine (sounds a bit like Adam Hastings). They were at Why Not, some went straight home when called, others stayed out til 4, Finn missed the recovery session and went to his parents.

Those are the "facts" a lot of people have been working off so I kinda hope they are true.

[whatisthejava]

Interesting. I do think that there is something to it being symptomatic of wider frustration. If people are enjoying life they are more likely to push it. It also doesn't seem a very Hogg thing to do.

Having said that, the audio floating around answers some of your questions if it is genuine (sounds a bit like Adam Hastings). They were at Why Not, some went straight home when called, others stayed out til 4, Finn missed the recovery session and went to his parents.

Those are the "facts" a lot of people have been working off so I kinda hope they are true.

What audio and where is the source?

[whatisthejava]

Amd Hogg has to give that pass 100x out of 100. Inexcusable.

I can’t decide, how often does the covering tackler actually take the ball carrier out of play

Make the pass and it doesn't matter. It turned 7 points into maybe 5 and ultimately 0.

Except we had already fluffed one of those up earlier in the tournament

[whatisthejava]

personally I always take the same stance - if its a stand off between the coach and a player or players, there can/should only be one winner. And its isn't the players.

I think this is an old style view, and in the end of the coach loses the dressing room he loses his job.

If you want a dictatorship you better be 100% convinced that your right, toonie has 2 backs that have won champion cups, GPS and been in multiple CC finals.

If he isn’t listening there is a problem.

The attack blew up because of the endless stupidity of trying to clear the jackaler with one player.

I’m not sure if the two are related but if two senior players are not highlighting that to the coach there is a serious issue

[Big D]

I can’t decide, how often does the covering tackler actually take the ball carrier out of play

Make the pass and it doesn't matter. It turned 7 points into maybe 5 and ultimately 0.

Except we had already fluffed one of those up earlier in the tournament

Harris? The pass Hogg would have had was far easier and Hogg should be a better passer than Harris. I defend Hogg on most things, but that really isn't something I can defend him on.

Make the correct decision every time and what will be will be.

If he gives that pass on 4 times out of 5 it sticks we are likely to score 7 points. That is a better outcome not giving it.

[Big D]

when Russell walked out last time, it was Hogg who called him out. The stupidity and hypocrisy of leading a group to the pub this time is staggering.

personally I always take the same stance - if its a stand off between the coach and a player or players, there can/should only be one winner. And its isn't the players.

The coach's head is on the block. The players will still play for their clubs whoever the national coach is. And should play for the national coach whoever that is. They are professionals. Paid well. If you anyone doesn't like the style, discuss, adapt or piss off.

That last bit can equally be applied to coaches coaching a group of players and in part why Taylor failed as the Scotland defence coach.

I don't necessarily agree with the stand off between players and coaches meaning players should go. Especially as we don't know the full details. Look at Cockerill at Edinburgh, it was clearly him that should go.

The players were wrong to go out, even if it wasn't explicitly agreed they shouldn't, but that shouldn't detract from the other issues around camp. That is if there are issues of course. If this 6N had been a success by any measure then I don't think this would have been anywhere near as big a story.

[septic 9]

That last bit can equally be applied to coaches coaching a group of players and in part why Taylor failed as the Scotland defence coach.

I don't necessarily agree with the stand off between players and coaches meaning players should go. Especially as we don't know the full details. Look at Cockerill at Edinburgh, it was clearly him that should go.

The players were wrong to go out, even if it wasn't explicitly agreed they shouldn't, but that shouldn't detract from the other issues around camp. That is if there are issues of course. If this 6N had been a success by any measure then I don't think this would have been anywhere near as big a story.

at Edinburgh, the players tried their best. AFAIK not one went out on the piss because they didn't like Cockerill's hopeless game plan. The players were not all unhappy but some more than that and as I understand it specific allegations of bullying were made, raised with management and upheld. Plenty of players hinting what they thought of Cockerill AFTER he had gone. Totally different
.
Taylor was possibly dumped as defence coach because his defensive system was clearly rubbish - even Steve Tandy improved it. Most Glasgow fans would tell you his defensive system was as bad at Glasgow - many were mixed about him going full time to Scotland (good for Glasgow bad for Scotland). Again this was coach performance not player power.

Townsend is very thoughtful, notoriously open to ideas from anywhere including other sports we might think irrelevant. And open to change as we have seen from the switch from all out run it (and lose embarrassingly at times) to a more pragmatic style. But at the end of the day its his head on the block so he will make the final calls. As he should. As fans we are entitled to criticise those calls, can even go on the piss to do that!

If those 6 players wanted to discuss tactics, I'm sure they could have huddled in a hotel room. The make up of the 6 suggests it was bugger all to do with that. It was an extra drink or two, led by the team captain, the guy who should set the example.

[septic 9]

Make the pass and it doesn't matter. It turned 7 points into maybe 5 and ultimately 0.

Except we had already fluffed one of those up earlier in the tournament

Harris? The pass Hogg would have had was far easier and Hogg should be a better passer than Harris. I defend Hogg on most things, but that really isn't something I can defend him on.

Make the correct decision every time and what will be will be.

If he gives that pass on 4 times out of 5 it sticks we are likely to score 7 points. That is a better outcome not giving it.

The pass Hogg should have made was far easier than the one Harris attempted and botched. It was not any easier than the pass Harris should have made.

[septic 9]

personally I always take the same stance - if its a stand off between the coach and a player or players, there can/should only be one winner. And its isn't the players.

I think this is an old style view, and in the end of the coach loses the dressing room he loses his job.

If you want a dictatorship you better be 100% convinced that your right, toonie has 2 backs that have won champion cups, GPS and been in multiple CC finals.

If he isn’t listening there is a problem.

The attack blew up because of the endless stupidity of trying to clear the jackaler with one player.

I’m not sure if the two are related but if two senior players are not highlighting that to the coach there is a serious issue

its not old style at all. Its professional sport. Results result in a coach keeping or losing his job; or disciplinary issues regarding the coach.

The rest of your post about only one player clearing - it has been an issue, but not at every ruck, Ireland certainly look to use 2 when they can. Many sides use one player to clear and the second to guard the ball over the tackled player, not just Scotland. Our coaches are professional coaches. They ain't all stupid, not are the analysts. They will understand better than we can what has happened what went wrong and why. And the players will have feed in as well. Standard debriefing and post match review.
Just maybe Ireland out thought us. Or just maybe our players did not do their job as they should have. Just maybe issues were identified in previous matches (was this a problem earlier?) and adjustments agreed - but not implemented?

This comes back to us having the best squad ever ever (Toonie included saying that) as if no one else improves; as if we don't say the same thing every year. Stark reality is our players are not as good as so many seem to think. We have a few who are really top drawer, but don't produce it every game; if everyone plays to their top potential we have a puncher's chance against anyone, but that's it

[Big D]

That last bit can equally be applied to coaches coaching a group of players and in part why Taylor failed as the Scotland defence coach.

I don't necessarily agree with the stand off between players and coaches meaning players should go. Especially as we don't know the full details. Look at Cockerill at Edinburgh, it was clearly him that should go.

The players were wrong to go out, even if it wasn't explicitly agreed they shouldn't, but that shouldn't detract from the other issues around camp. That is if there are issues of course. If this 6N had been a success by any measure then I don't think this would have been anywhere near as big a story.

at Edinburgh, the players tried their best. AFAIK not one went out on the piss because they didn't like Cockerill's hopeless game plan. The players were not all unhappy but some more than that and as I understand it specific allegations of bullying were made, raised with management and upheld. Plenty of players hinting what they thought of Cockerill AFTER he had gone. Totally different
.
Taylor was possibly dumped as defence coach because his defensive system was clearly rubbish - even Steve Tandy improved it. Most Glasgow fans would tell you his defensive system was as bad at Glasgow - many were mixed about him going full time to Scotland (good for Glasgow bad for Scotland). Again this was coach performance not player power.

Townsend is very thoughtful, notoriously open to ideas from anywhere including other sports we might think irrelevant. And open to change as we have seen from the switch from all out run it (and lose embarrassingly at times) to a more pragmatic style. But at the end of the day its his head on the block so he will make the final calls. As he should. As fans we are entitled to criticise those calls, can even go on the piss to do that!

If those 6 players wanted to discuss tactics, I'm sure they could have huddled in a hotel room. The make up of the 6 suggests it was bugger all to do with that. It was an extra drink or two, led by the team captain, the guy who should set the example.

Taylors defensive system was known to be complex, overly so. It has been said that Tandy employs an easy to understand and easy to implement system. He didn't adapt and wasn't dumped (an error by Cotter, Townsend and the SRU as many on here were saying since about 2015), but he failed because he was unwilling to adapt and listen to player concerns. He left to go to Australia he wasn't sacked.

I didn't try to compare Cockerill and Townsend direct situation, all I said was there are times when the coach should go, I haven't said Townsend should go as we don't know the full story.

If the recording is a true reflection of events then the squad were having a beer or three celebrating Price's 50th cap. They (him and his closest pals in the squad) were allowed to carrying drinking in the assumption it would be in the hotel rather in town. The error of judgement, in the eyes of the management, was breaking covid protocol not the boozing. We have seen all 6N that the management don't really care about the drinking, at least openly.

We talk of coaches heads being on the block and that is true. However it would be completely understandable for players to be frustrated. They only get one international career, so in many ways the senior players heads are also on the block as they are approaching their last crack at any sort of success, however that is measured.

There are three clear camps appearing on this; the pro Townsend camp who won't hear too many bad words on him, the Townsend must go camp who are the reverse of camp 1 and the camp in the middle who think something isn't right and it needs to be sorted one way or another.

Both this senior group of players and Townsend will be forever linked as when Townsend goes it will be close to the end of some. Whether they been successful because of Townsend or vice versa will never be definitively proven. Townsend has seen a 57% win rate, these players are on an 8 year run of a 54% win rate and have seen their two coaches have the best win rates of any coach (but not individual reign - that is Geech).

[Big D]

The culture in the camp is clearly an issue. Beat England and some players "ripped the arse out it" and social media laughed. The players then had a shocker v Wales. There needs to be a culture shift. If players want a beer then fine, but if they can't stop themselves at a couple then there is an issue that needs sorted.

[stevedog1980]

Also worth noting is that we are on an announced pathway to the removal of COVID restrictions. You see a relaxation to the protocols everywhere you look at the moment because people can't see the justification for holding on another week or 2 when all restrictions are going. Wouldn't surprise me if this feeds into the decision to break protocol "if restrictions are going away in 2 weeks anyway, what's the difference if we go for a beer now?". I can sympathise with that way of thinking when they've been in an enforced bubble for so long

[Big D]

Good article here:
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/stuart-h ... iew-253621

"They win a turnover in the middle of the field and they're all celebrating and going absolutely crazy. What they need to do is get on with it and focus on the next job. Go and beat these teams, rather than jumping around and shouting at lads... You're looking at them going, 'You haven't won anything major in the last while. Go on to the next job and go win these games'."

Could change this comment slightly and apply it to post England game.

[septic 9]

Good article here:
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/stuart-h ... iew-253621

"They win a turnover in the middle of the field and they're all celebrating and going absolutely crazy. What they need to do is get on with it and focus on the next job. Go and beat these teams, rather than jumping around and shouting at lads... You're looking at them going, 'You haven't won anything major in the last while. Go on to the next job and go win these games'."

Could change this comment slightly and apply it to post England game.

sorry I find it difficult to take anything seriously from the no self awareness Irish media and people like SoB.
Watch every Irish turnover at every level. You'll see the same whooping and hair ruffling and back slapping. Unless maybe if you are SoB, who would prefer to punch a player in the stomach when he isn't looking and the ball is dead, an dof course Irish social media (not taken on by SoB or Irish MSM) going menta with accusations that Pape had somehow managed to stick a finger up SoB's arse, which was in fact impossible which anyone who saw the incident knows. (Game kicked off, ref called for kick to be retaken, SoB runs past Pape who hasn't moved and throws a full blooded punch as he runs past him). A certain ref who watched it full on managed to see nothing. Irish fans should not be reffing Ireland

I think he got a one match ban, should have been months for the coward.

[septic 9]

The culture in the camp is clearly an issue. Beat England and some players "ripped the arse out it" and social media laughed. The players then had a shocker v Wales. There needs to be a culture shift. If players want a beer then fine, but if they can't stop themselves at a couple then there is an issue that needs sorted.

funny that. If they really ripped the arse out of it (by getting really pissed) , then it was the coaching team's consent. My memory anyway is that Fagerson said that some did, he didn't say he did (he may or may not). There is a tendency to read far too much into throwaway comments.

Same with the Ireland post match interviews. I'm not exactly sure what the media or fans wanted them to say. Nothing short of I'm so unhappy with all of this I can't take it anymore so I'm off to top myself would have stopped the same folk pushing the same lines, and I'm far from convinced some of the media would have stopped even then

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah it seems bizarre to single Scotland out for celebrating turnovers too much. There are so many teams that do this, and when playing without crowds the whole "create your own atmosphere" thing really took off. There might be some sort of point in there about Scotland not focussing on what's ahead of them, but again I'm just wondering why many Irish pundits are so, so bitter about anything to do with Scotland.

[Big D]

The culture in the camp is clearly an issue. Beat England and some players "ripped the arse out it" and social media laughed. The players then had a shocker v Wales. There needs to be a culture shift. If players want a beer then fine, but if they can't stop themselves at a couple then there is an issue that needs sorted.

funny that. If they really ripped the arse out of it (by getting really pissed) , then it was the coaching team's consent. My memory anyway is that Fagerson said that some did, he didn't say he did (he may or may not). There is a tendency to read far too much into throwaway comments.

Same with the Ireland post match interviews. I'm not exactly sure what the media or fans wanted them to say. Nothing short of I'm so unhappy with all of this I can't take it anymore so I'm off to top myself would have stopped the same folk pushing the same lines, and I'm far from convinced some of the media would have stopped even then

Fagerson went home to his family and "some of the lads ripped the arse out of it". It could have been "banter" but players are pretty media savvy these days.

The press conference has seen a shift even from Scottish journalists. The press conference questions weren't that tough or that sinister in tone. Dealing with the press is a part of their job and the answers Hogg gave were daft. It was the Scottish journalists first chance to ask about the protocol breach and they've just lost by 21 points there really wasn't many positives to ask about.

The first question about the non pass wasn't even a bad/tough question, it was a question about it being a pivitol moment and he starts his answer with "unfortunately its a classic you've picked out the negatives". It is also a very fair question to ask the captain, who lead a disciplinary breach, about said breach.