Autumn thoughts

[Mr Mwenda]

Well that was a shit series. If any serious coaching candidate is available i think that option needs to be considered.

Positives?
- Ribbans seems a good find.
- Simmonds had some decent moments.
- Ditto Slade
- that ten minutes.

Neutral?
- JVP continues to gain experience but his weaknesses are now ruthlessly being targeted.
- moments of control from Smith
- Stewart, boks game aside continues to be s natural test player.
- Stuart made a good return.

Negatives
- playing only one flanker does not seem to produce any gains but a lot of issues.
- whole pack seems to be breathtakingly thick
- especially, hill and LCD
- they still love to whoop madly even when it's thanks to the fucking spider cam.
- no idea what the backs practice if at all as regardless of personnel they are disjointed.
- time to say thanks for the memories to Tuilagi. Nowell too, although I am glad the latter could show he has some skills there.

No doubt there is more....

[16th man]

Genuinely hard to pick what the low point was. The first half last week was just headless chickens stuff, with some dreadful skill levels on show but at least we managed to turn it on when we had a man spare. Today we just got bullied, and there was no way it looked like they were a man down for the last 20 minutes.

Oh and the crap we put out for long periods against Argentina too.

[Which Tyler]

#EddieOut

I'm not vehement in it yet, but I have reached that point

[fivepointer]

Its been a waste. 4 games in which we've hardly moved forward in terms of playing style, or in player development. We look no better now than we did in the 6N's.
If there is a master plan to bring us to the WC ready to take on and beat allcomers its extremely well hidden.
I dont think Jones will go before the WC so he's got 5 6N games plus WC warm ups to fashion a side that might present some sort of challenge. Right now we look miles off the standards set by SA, Ireland and France.
The autumn games have been a huge letdown.

[francoisfou]

With just the 6N to turn everything around, Eddie’s position is surely untenable. As 5pointer says, no progress has been made, and I’d suggest that England have gone backwards. Your time is up, Eddie!

[Mellsblue]

As per the other thread, Smith has improved as the series went on. Anything else is lipstick on a pig.

[SouthFalcon87]

If Eddie stays, he has 9 games to effectively turn it all around. With zero evidence he will.
So why not give it to someone else to have 9 games to turn it around?
Literally anyone who will play in form players, play 3 back rows in the back row, play a style that suits your starting 10, not play a mediocre fly half at 12 where he’s even worse, have an attacking game plan not reliant on Tuilagi and play wings who are actually in form. Also have a players who actually will have to perform to be selected. Rather than the ones who get selected regardless of performance.

At this point the only nailed on starters for me are Genge, Itoje and Steward. I’d add Smith if we’re actually going to let him play rugby rather than hamstring him with Farrell at 12.

[pandion]

Eddie Jones is still a cunt. The rest is irrelevant as it won't be learned from just replicated with more excuses.

[p/d]

They believed that 10 mins was what they have been striving/training for. Deluded, the lot of them. Don’t go around telling us the 2019 side couldn’t have played like that, then shovel that shit today our way.

Sorry, but struggling for positives out of the 4 games.

[Mikey Brown]

Hey now, we’ve always got the graph.

Interesting looking trend in this graph. The worse we are now, the better we'll be in a years time?

Now that we’re as bad as we’ve been since 2008, we have to be on the (huge) upward curve soon, right?

[Scrumhead]

After reflecting on it some more, I would go as far as to say Eddie is killing my enjoyment of watching England play.

If someone like me with a lifelong devotion to the sport feels that way, casual fans must be completely uninterested.

Eddie needs to go. He did some good things along the way, but has completely tarnished all of that since 2019.

[Beasties]

I almost never get to watch rugby live these days, I watched the first half live yest. What the Hell is going on with all the stoppages? I normally just fast forward through them all but couldn’t yest. Apart from the regulation 10 min break before every scrum, what’s with all the other stoppages? Every few minutes there’s a group hug and a band of bibbers flooding onto the pitch to offer comfort. Why would anyone volutarily pay big money to go and watch all these people standing about while they get cold? What’s the reward? Short bursts of crap/thick rugby? It’s turning into American football without the entertainment. At least let the viewers at home have some adverts to enjoy. Only slightly joking about the last bit.

[Beasties]

After reflecting on it some more, I would go as far as to say Eddie is killing my enjoyment of watching England play.

If someone like me with a lifelong devotion to the sport feels that way, casual fans must be completely uninterested.

Eddie needs to go. He did some good things along the way, but has completely tarnished all of that since 2019.

It must’ve been an Eddie impersonator in charge of Japan back in the day. Can we get that bloke in so we can beat SA please?

[Scrumhead]

Well that was a shit series. If any serious coaching candidate is available i think that option needs to be considered.

Positives?
- Ribbans seems a good find.
- Simmonds had some decent moments.
- Ditto Slade
- that ten minutes.

Neutral?
- JVP continues to gain experience but his weaknesses are now ruthlessly being targeted.
- moments of control from Smith
- Stewart, boks game aside continues to be s natural test player.
- Stuart made a good return.

Negatives
- playing only one flanker does not seem to produce any gains but a lot of issues.
- whole pack seems to be breathtakingly thick
- especially, hill and LCD
- they still love to whoop madly even when it's thanks to the fucking spider cam.
- no idea what the backs practice if at all as regardless of personnel they are disjointed.
- time to say thanks for the memories to Tuilagi. Nowell too, although I am glad the latter could show he has some skills there.

No doubt there is more....

Agree with all of the above.

This really should be the end of the line for Tuilagi and Nowell, but I’d also add Billy and Mako. They’ve all been good servants to England over the years, but their time has clearly passed and there are viable alternatives for all of them.

I thought Hill had moved on from the dumb stuff, but apparently not. I actually think he’s pretty useful at the nuts and bolts, but his proneness to stupid, unnecessary BS right in front of the ref makes him a liability. Chessum, Ribbans or Isiekwe (when fit) can/should take his place with Tizard next in line.

The hooting and hollering needs to stop …

[loudnconfident]

I almost never get to watch rugby live these days, I watched the first half live yest. What the Hell is going on with all the stoppages? I normally just fast forward through them all but couldn’t yest. Apart from the regulation 10 min break before every scrum, what’s with all the other stoppages? Every few minutes there’s a group hug and a band of bibbers flooding onto the pitch to offer comfort. Why would anyone volutarily pay big money to go and watch all these people standing about while they get cold? What’s the reward? Short bursts of crap/thick rugby? It’s turning into American football without the entertainment. At least let the viewers at home have some adverts to enjoy. Only slightly joking about the last bit.

I agree. I went to the Argentina game. Its even worse live. And all the ref's lectures before each scrum - it's like having to pay to watch a training session.

[Oakboy]

Jones to depart now or after the WC? I can think of no reason to delay. In particular, thinking long-term, I do not want Jones having any influence over the appointment of his successor. I'd go further and veto the apppointment of anyone who has worked with or for him. A Jones-clone is definitely not what we need.

[FKAS]

I’d add Smith if we’re actually going to let him play rugby rather than hamstring him with Farrell at 12.

How quickly we forget the last 6N. Smith ended the competition in awful form, against France he was probably our worst player which required effort. He also played a central part in the pathetic performance Vs the Baabaas. No Farrell in those games.

A few calls to ditch Mako on here. Who we replacing him with? He's our third best loosehead and our second best loosehead has made himself unavailable (again and let's face it isn't always reliable).

Similar situation with Billy V, who's replacing him? Dombrandt's managed one decent performance in 9 caps and Simmonds has spent the Autumn demonstrating he hasn't go the carrying game that'll work against the big boys.

Who we replacing Eddie with? No Prem club will release a head coach mid season without a significant amount of cash which the RFU isn't going to want to find when they will have to pay out Eddie as well.

[Scrumhead]

I’d add Smith if we’re actually going to let him play rugby rather than hamstring him with Farrell at 12.

How quickly we forget the last 6N. Smith ended the competition in awful form, against France he was probably our worst player which required effort. He also played a central part in the pathetic performance Vs the Baabaas. No Farrell in those games.

No-one has said Smith is perfect, but at least there have been flashes of quality. When the only available alternative right now is Farrell, I’d prefer to persevere. The upside of keeping him should be worth it. It’s a different conversation when Ford is fit.

A few calls to ditch Mako on here. Who we replacing him with? He's our third best loosehead and our second best loosehead has made himself unavailable (again and let's face it isn't always reliable).

VRR should have been capped a long time ago. I don’t think he’s a better player than prime Mako was, but that prime has been and gone. I’d also be happy to invest more in Rodd’s development.

Similar situation with Billy V, who's replacing him? Dombrandt's managed one decent performance in 9 caps and Simmonds has spent the Autumn demonstrating he hasn't go the carrying game that'll work against the big boys.

Harsh on Dombrandt. He’s barely had any starts and his sub appearances have often seen him packing down at 6. He hasn’t set he world alight with the limited opportunities he has, but we’re not talking about 9 starts here. Like Smith, it’s a case of giving the up-and-coming option a proper chance. Why persevere with an ageing, largely ineffective ‘tried and tested’ option when they’re not delivering what they used to? Also, Dombrandt and Mercer have similar qualities. If it were up to me, we’d be developing a gameplan for our 8s that gives us a better chance of playing to their strengths. If we could bed that in with Dombrandt, it would also allow Mercer to slot in more easily.

Who we replacing Eddie with? No Prem club will release a head coach mid season without a significant amount of cash which the RFU isn't going to want to find when they will have to pay out Eddie as well.

This is my concern too. I fear we’d be saddled with Cockerill. Particularly if the RFU are breaking the bank with the payoff for Eddie.

Answered these one by one (in italics).

[fivepointer]

Warren Gatland is currently free, i understand.

[francoisfou]

When will George Ford be playing again?
Even if Eddie hangs on until the 6N, will he have the balls to drop Farrell and Smith?

[Mikey Brown]

I’d add Smith if we’re actually going to let him play rugby rather than hamstring him with Farrell at 12.

How quickly we forget the last 6N. Smith ended the competition in awful form, against France he was probably our worst player which required effort. He also played a central part in the pathetic performance Vs the Baabaas. No Farrell in those games.

A few calls to ditch Mako on here. Who we replacing him with? He's our third best loosehead and our second best loosehead has made himself unavailable (again and let's face it isn't always reliable).

Similar situation with Billy V, who's replacing him? Dombrandt's managed one decent performance in 9 caps and Simmonds has spent the Autumn demonstrating he hasn't go the carrying game that'll work against the big boys.

Who we replacing Eddie with? No Prem club will release a head coach mid season without a significant amount of cash which the RFU isn't going to want to find when they will have to pay out Eddie as well.

You’re certainly not wrong to point all those things out. He’s not been helped by injuries, but it feels like switching out the game-plan, coaching staff and half the fringe players challenging for spots every single campaign has taken its toll in a lot of ways.

Maybe we’ve got some magical plans hidden away, but there seems to be no cohesion, no discipline and no clear thinking on how we’re trying to play.

It’s been disappointing seeing guys like Dombrandt and Smith show such unbelievable, innate talent for reading the game and creating scores from nothing, to then join up with England and look mostly clueless. But I can’t believe that is entirely separate from the issue above.

I don’t want to turn in to that Sarries guy that used to post here and say I’d rather just keep them for my club and not watch England, but there must be a lot of club supporters nearing that point if they haven’t already crossed it.

I mean what is even the fucking point of the premiership if the coach doesn’t value real, live performance there against actual opponents nearly as much as his training sessions? Might as well just do what Joseph did with Japan and have the EPS squad of favourites all join a shell team in division 2.

[Epaminondas Pules]

#EddieOut

I'm not vehement in it yet, but I have reached that point

Snap. It’s time.

[16th man]

Billy V isn't the player he was, but to be fair to him, he used to be playing in a team with a bit of threat out wide, who's scrum half was a running threat and actually allowed to use the option rather than just kick, and that wasn't "hiding" all their moves which weren't just him running one out.
Opposition defences can set narrow, knowing we won't be going around either because we won't try or we're too slow to make it sticj, and just grind him down.

[Oakboy]

I suggest the RFU's best option is to do an exercise like Jimmy Armfield was tasked with when Venables was appointed. He visited every top level football club and asked opinion. If that was done now for a part-time group to get us through to the RWC, together with who should be the long-term option, the clubs and the RFU might sing from the same hymn sheet for once.

If Jones goes all his assistant coaches MUST go too.

[Mikey Brown]

Ha. Yeah imagine being the new apprentice defence coach that gets ditched before he can even start.

In the interest of ditching absolutely everybody, here’s a knee-jerk proposal that solves nothing except for my boredom (temporarily).

1. Marler
2. McGuigan
3. Collier/Schonert
4. Launch
5. Chessum
6. Hill/Martin
7. Burry/Ludlaw
8. Dombrant

9. Quirke
10. Ford
11. Murley
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Arundell

How’s that for addressing all of the wrong issues?