A Welsh perspective on Borthwick's appointment

[UKHamlet]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64017216

What do you think? What sort of challenges will a Borthwick coached England present? He's done a pretty good job at Leicester, but can he inspire England to be more than the sum of their parts?

[Sandydragon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64017216

What do you think? What sort of challenges will a Borthwick coached England present? He's done a pretty good job at Leicester, but can he inspire England to be more than the sum of their parts?

I don't watch enough of Leicester to judge style, although I understand that he favours a tighter game, and he has clearly had some success at that club. That would play to England's strengths. I do suspect that they will benefit from new coach bounce, but its difficult to judge how good a coach is from just one club and for such a short period of time.He hs got very little time to impact this English team and has a huge disadvantage to Warren Gatland, the latter knowing many of the players who also know him and his style.

On their day, England under Jones could destroy anyone. Yet they were also mentally fragile. It might take more than a few months to confront that.

[Wallpaperman]

Can’t argue with the way that he turned Leicester around. As with Sandy I don’t watch loads of premiership rugby, but Borthwick seems to be really good at getting the forwards playing well. He had a reputation for being really intelligent about the lineout when he was a player, too. I think he will need the right coaches around him, if so he could be a real success in time. Doesn’t have a ‘world cup winner’ look about him as yet.

We’ll never know now whether Eddie Jones would have produced again at the World Cup. He was certainly capable of taking England to the top I think, but the wheels came off in 2022. The semi final in 2019 is one of the best England performances I can remember. They won by 9 points but had 2 tries narrowly disallowed - New Zealand lost the plot and were lucky to leave without getting a proper hiding. They weren’t too shabby in the quarter final v Australia either. I think beating all 3 southern hemisphere teams in succession would be too much for almost any team, although I never expected the final to be as one sided as it ended up being.

[Sandydragon]

Can’t argue with the way that he turned Leicester around. As with Sandy I don’t watch loads of premiership rugby, but Borthwick seems to be really good at getting the forwards playing well. He had a reputation for being really intelligent about the lineout when he was a player, too. I think he will need the right coaches around him, if so he could be a real success in time. Doesn’t have a ‘world cup winner’ look about him as yet.

We’ll never know now whether Eddie Jones would have produced again at the World Cup. He was certainly capable of taking England to the top I think, but the wheels came off in 2022. The semi final in 2019 is one of the best England performances I can remember. They won by 9 points but had 2 tries narrowly disallowed - New Zealand lost the plot and were lucky to leave without getting a proper hiding. They weren’t too shabby in the quarter final v Australia either. I think beating all 3 southern hemisphere teams in succession would be too much for almost any team, although I never expected the final to be as one sided as it ended up being.

There's no getting away from the fact that this is a huge risk for Borthwick. He did well at Leicester but he is still a newish coach and would probably have preferred to get some more experience before taking over this particular poisoned chalice. What's more he has a few months to turn the ship around. I wonder what the success criteria in his contract looks like? Surely it can't be to win the RWC, but is say Quarter Finalist status enough for the RFU?

[Puja]

Can’t argue with the way that he turned Leicester around. As with Sandy I don’t watch loads of premiership rugby, but Borthwick seems to be really good at getting the forwards playing well. He had a reputation for being really intelligent about the lineout when he was a player, too. I think he will need the right coaches around him, if so he could be a real success in time. Doesn’t have a ‘world cup winner’ look about him as yet.

We’ll never know now whether Eddie Jones would have produced again at the World Cup. He was certainly capable of taking England to the top I think, but the wheels came off in 2022. The semi final in 2019 is one of the best England performances I can remember. They won by 9 points but had 2 tries narrowly disallowed - New Zealand lost the plot and were lucky to leave without getting a proper hiding. They weren’t too shabby in the quarter final v Australia either. I think beating all 3 southern hemisphere teams in succession would be too much for almost any team, although I never expected the final to be as one sided as it ended up being.

There's no getting away from the fact that this is a huge risk for Borthwick. He did well at Leicester but he is still a newish coach and would probably have preferred to get some more experience before taking over this particular poisoned chalice. What's more he has a few months to turn the ship around. I wonder what the success criteria in his contract looks like? Surely it can't be to win the RWC, but is say Quarter Finalist status enough for the RFU?

As the news would have you believe, he is on a 5 year contract with no minimum performance at the first RWC required. What the veracity of that is, I don't know, but I can't imagine anything less than a disastrous 6N combined with a first round exit will see the back of him that quickly.

I would much rather him having had an additional year or two in domestic coaching, but he does have the advantage of 7 years as Eddie's assistant for Japan and England, and then 2 (calendar) years as the head man at Leicester. He's got a fair amount of relevant experience and hopefully will back himself.

Puja

[Wallpaperman]

It’s good that England have a new coach that they can appoint from within their domestic league. I thought they would go for Scott Robertson.

Thanks for the info, Puja. Borthwick has a decent level of experience and equally importantly looks as though he will know the set-up, and what is expected of him, by the RFU.

Anyway, best of luck to Borthwick. Apart from against Wales, obviously, where I hope he is on the receiving end of a sizeable defeat, every time.

[Sandydragon]

It’s good that England have a new coach that they can appoint from within their domestic league. I thought they would go for Scott Robertson.

Thanks for the info, Puja. Borthwick has a decent level of experience and equally importantly looks as though he will know the set-up, and what is expected of him, by the RFU.

Anyway, best of luck to Borthwick. Apart from against Wales, obviously, where I hope he is on the receiving end of a sizeable defeat, every time.

Amen. Preferably we can have a repeat of the 2008 game where he was taking the piss out of Martyn Williams before halftime, and before we had that second half and won at Twickenham.

[Sourdust]

If I could sum up Borthwick in one word I'd say "uninspiring" - but that's the perspective of a rival fan, not a friendly player. Maybe he's got the magic touch in the dressing room? The Tigers' renaissance would suggest he might.

He certainly has that "decent bloke" aura that can soothe some of the usual anti-English feelings; but that often fails to match up with success. With a "neutral" hat on (i.e. removing my "Please Gods Let England Lose Every Game They Play Until The End Of Time" hat) I'd hope they do as Puja suggests and sit tight for a few years however bad the results.

[Inverdales_buttons]

He'll do well with Sinfield. The only thing with recruiting from a club playing in the country he is coaching is he will have favourites from Leicester which could blinker him to make hard selection choices. Hard to be objective unless you are parachuted in from elsewhere. That could be an advantage

[Sandydragon]

He'll do well with Sinfield. The only thing with recruiting from a club playing in the country he is coaching is he will have favourites from Leicester which could blinker him to make hard selection choices. Hard to be objective unless you are parachuted in from elsewhere. That could be an advantage

I agree. Borthwick doesnt come across as a blood and thunder inspirational leader, but many players have commented on his knowledge of the game. If he has a deputy and captain to do the up spirits stuff then it could be a good team.

Hopefully not too good.

[ALunpg]

Richard Cockerell may be that sort of coach, also maybe Sinfield would be another potential focal point.

[Numbers]

Can’t argue with the way that he turned Leicester around. As with Sandy I don’t watch loads of premiership rugby, but Borthwick seems to be really good at getting the forwards playing well. He had a reputation for being really intelligent about the lineout when he was a player, too. I think he will need the right coaches around him, if so he could be a real success in time. Doesn’t have a ‘world cup winner’ look about him as yet.

We’ll never know now whether Eddie Jones would have produced again at the World Cup. He was certainly capable of taking England to the top I think, but the wheels came off in 2022. The semi final in 2019 is one of the best England performances I can remember. They won by 9 points but had 2 tries narrowly disallowed - New Zealand lost the plot and were lucky to leave without getting a proper hiding. They weren’t too shabby in the quarter final v Australia either. I think beating all 3 southern hemisphere teams in succession would be too much for almost any team, although I never expected the final to be as one sided as it ended up being.

Not now he's back with Aus, it would be quite amusing if they won tbh.

[loudnconfident]

Surely it can't be to win the RWC, but is say Quarter Finalist status enough for the RFU?

Bit late in replying - but if England don't make the QFs heads have to roll. It would mean we lost to two of Argentina, Japan, Samoa and Chile.

[Sandydragon]

Surely it can't be to win the RWC, but is say Quarter Finalist status enough for the RFU?

Bit late in replying - but if England don't make the QFs heads have to roll. It would mean we lost to two of Argentina, Japan, Samoa and Chile.

Yes, that would be an epic meltdown. At least in 2015 you had 2 1st tier teams in the same group. Argentina can beat you and Japan are a handful, but it would take something special/disastrous (delete as appropriate) for you not to make the QFs.

What price England vs Australia and the revenge of Jones in the QFs?

[loudnconfident]

Surely it can't be to win the RWC, but is say Quarter Finalist status enough for the RFU?

Bit late in replying - but if England don't make the QFs heads have to roll. It would mean we lost to two of Argentina, Japan, Samoa and Chile.

Yes, that would be an epic meltdown. At least in 2015 you had 2 1st tier teams in the same group. Argentina can beat you and Japan are a handful, but it would take something special/disastrous (delete as appropriate) for you not to make the QFs.

What price England vs Australia and the revenge of Jones in the QFs?

England have a very favourable draw. Wales' is good as well. The 4 top teams (SA, NZ, Fr and Ire) all in the other half of the draw and neither Wales not England can meet them till the SFs, when 2 of em will have been eliminated.

Wrt England meeting Oz in the QFs, I'm expecting that showdown in the Final! ()