Regions.... The Way Forward

[Tuco Ramirez]

East Wales, West Wales and North Wales (development similar to Connaught)

Games shared out between stadia that meets the criteria for sponsors etc. No club names in the titles. Underpinned by a Premiership which would have access to non selected regional players. Thats my scenario for the future. What are your thoughts?

[Tuco Ramirez]

Dwyrain Cymru, Gorllewin Cymru, Gogledd Cymru

North could play in Blue, West in Green and East in White.

[pompey-zebra]

Think there's some merit in this. It may result in a stronger top level, while invigorating the Prem., which would be no bad thing. I'd hope that, assuming there's an intention to have the bulk of the Wales players playing for these three teams, they are released sufficiently to make those teams competitive. While I understand the focus on the national team, the regions/ clubs below them should be competitive in their own right, and not just flags of convenience to give the Wales players a bit of game time ahead of internationals. Not having a competitive top tier is going to lead to problems at international level, if not already.

[Sandydragon]

East Wales, West Wales and North Wales (development similar to Connaught)

Games shared out between stadia that meets the criteria for sponsors etc. No club names in the titles. Underpinned by a Premiership which would have access to non selected regional players. Thats my scenario for the future. What are your thoughts?

Agreed. The regional experiment hasn’t worked. We can’t afford four regions anymore, not four competitive ones anyway. Dropping one of the existing four would just cause resentment, so drop all four back to clubs (they exist anyway) and have two competitive regions that play in a variety of stadiums in their region. Plus a North Wales region for development.

Only snag is we are contracted to provide four teams to the URC.

[Sandydragon]

Think there's some merit in this. It may result in a stronger top level, while invigorating the Prem., which would be no bad thing. I'd hope that, assuming there's an intention to have the bulk of the Wales players playing for these three teams, they are released sufficiently to make those teams competitive. While I understand the focus on the national team, the regions/ clubs below them should be competitive in their own right, and not just flags of convenience to give the Wales players a bit of game time ahead of internationals. Not having a competitive top tier is going to lead to problems at international level, if not already.

The WRU needs to run the new regions and control coaching and style, plus any foreign recruitment. But that also needs the WRU to reform and do this properly.

If every regional player has a feeder club to which they return when not needed for regional duty, that would help the premiership (which should be no more than 10 clubs).

[Son of Mathonwy]

Think there's some merit in this. It may result in a stronger top level, while invigorating the Prem., which would be no bad thing. I'd hope that, assuming there's an intention to have the bulk of the Wales players playing for these three teams, they are released sufficiently to make those teams competitive. While I understand the focus on the national team, the regions/ clubs below them should be competitive in their own right, and not just flags of convenience to give the Wales players a bit of game time ahead of internationals. Not having a competitive top tier is going to lead to problems at international level, if not already.

The WRU needs to run the new regions and control coaching and style, plus any foreign recruitment. But that also needs the WRU to reform and do this properly.

If every regional player has a feeder club to which they return when not needed for regional duty, that would help the premiership (which should be no more than 10 clubs).

Agreed - the whole thing has to be owned or at least majority-owned by the WRU (a reformed, competent one). Sell off non-rugby investments. All professional rugby to be run to the same core standards of coaching, strategy, tactics, skills, fitness.

I'm not convinced a North Wales region is viable, so I'd (roughly) keep the current regions as the West Wales Scarlets, South-West Wales Ospreys, South Wales Blues, West Wales Dragons, where the Scarlets and Dragons get the West and East of North Wales as feeders. Depending on funds one or two regions would be development regions (based on historical success development regions would be Dragons and possibly Blues if 2 are needed). No old club names to remain in these regions (although an amalgam of their logos or colours would be good).

All rugby below this level would have player development as its primary goal, and would need to include significant numbers of young players. As above, the same core standards must be employed at this level. Links from feeders to regions must be highlighted as much as possible - I suggest players always wear socks with their local (Welsh) team's colour when playing for their region or for the national team.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Think there's some merit in this. It may result in a stronger top level, while invigorating the Prem., which would be no bad thing. I'd hope that, assuming there's an intention to have the bulk of the Wales players playing for these three teams, they are released sufficiently to make those teams competitive. While I understand the focus on the national team, the regions/ clubs below them should be competitive in their own right, and not just flags of convenience to give the Wales players a bit of game time ahead of internationals. Not having a competitive top tier is going to lead to problems at international level, if not already.

The WRU needs to run the new regions and control coaching and style, plus any foreign recruitment. But that also needs the WRU to reform and do this properly.

If every regional player has a feeder club to which they return when not needed for regional duty, that would help the premiership (which should be no more than 10 clubs).

Agreed - the whole thing has to be owned or at least majority-owned by the WRU (a reformed, competent one). Sell off non-rugby investments. All professional rugby to be run to the same core standards of coaching, strategy, tactics, skills, fitness.

I'm not convinced a North Wales region is viable, so I'd (roughly) keep the current regions as the West Wales Scarlets, South-West Wales Ospreys, South Wales Blues, West Wales Dragons, where the Scarlets and Dragons get the West and East of North Wales as feeders. Depending on funds one or two regions would be development regions (based on historical success development regions would be Dragons and possibly Blues if 2 are needed). No old club names to remain in these regions (although an amalgam of their logos or colours would be good).

All rugby below this level would have player development as its primary goal, and would need to include significant numbers of young players. As above, the same core standards must be employed at this level. Links from feeders to regions must be highlighted as much as possible - I suggest players always wear socks with their local (Welsh) team's colour when playing for their region or for the national team.

Unless i read this wrongly,Son of Mathonwy, are you advocating that we should stick with 4 regions

[Son of Mathonwy]

The WRU needs to run the new regions and control coaching and style, plus any foreign recruitment. But that also needs the WRU to reform and do this properly.

If every regional player has a feeder club to which they return when not needed for regional duty, that would help the premiership (which should be no more than 10 clubs).

Agreed - the whole thing has to be owned or at least majority-owned by the WRU (a reformed, competent one). Sell off non-rugby investments. All professional rugby to be run to the same core standards of coaching, strategy, tactics, skills, fitness.

I'm not convinced a North Wales region is viable, so I'd (roughly) keep the current regions as the West Wales Scarlets, South-West Wales Ospreys, South Wales Blues, West Wales Dragons, where the Scarlets and Dragons get the West and East of North Wales as feeders. Depending on funds one or two regions would be development regions (based on historical success development regions would be Dragons and possibly Blues if 2 are needed). No old club names to remain in these regions (although an amalgam of their logos or colours would be good).

All rugby below this level would have player development as its primary goal, and would need to include significant numbers of young players. As above, the same core standards must be employed at this level. Links from feeders to regions must be highlighted as much as possible - I suggest players always wear socks with their local (Welsh) team's colour when playing for their region or for the national team.

Unless i read this wrongly,Son of Mathonwy, are you advocating that we should stick with 4 regions

I'd rather keep 4 even if 2 are poorly funded. Our teams often struggle to win matches despite current funding levels, so it wouldn't change too much to have 1 or 2 on significantly lower funding levels but giving our up and coming players good experience.

[UKHamlet]

Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli. That's it.

No payments below the Premiership. No subsidies from the WRU for anyone but the three mentioned above. If in five years we're winning stuff, Newport can be a development team.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli. That's it.

No payments below the Premiership. No subsidies from the WRU for anyone but the three mentioned above. If in five years we're winning stuff, Newport can be a development team.

fuck the clubs off, they are half the battle. East and West and North as development

[Numbers]

Agreed - the whole thing has to be owned or at least majority-owned by the WRU (a reformed, competent one). Sell off non-rugby investments. All professional rugby to be run to the same core standards of coaching, strategy, tactics, skills, fitness.

I'm not convinced a North Wales region is viable, so I'd (roughly) keep the current regions as the West Wales Scarlets, South-West Wales Ospreys, South Wales Blues, West Wales Dragons, where the Scarlets and Dragons get the West and East of North Wales as feeders. Depending on funds one or two regions would be development regions (based on historical success development regions would be Dragons and possibly Blues if 2 are needed). No old club names to remain in these regions (although an amalgam of their logos or colours would be good).

All rugby below this level would have player development as its primary goal, and would need to include significant numbers of young players. As above, the same core standards must be employed at this level. Links from feeders to regions must be highlighted as much as possible - I suggest players always wear socks with their local (Welsh) team's colour when playing for their region or for the national team.

Unless i read this wrongly,Son of Mathonwy, are you advocating that we should stick with 4 regions

I'd rather keep 4 even if 2 are poorly funded. Our teams often struggle to win matches despite current funding levels, so it wouldn't change too much to have 1 or 2 on significantly lower funding levels but giving our up and coming players good experience.

So they have said they are basing the salaries around the 36 players per squad model which is why they have introduced this loan system, I'm not sure people would buy into supporting a team if the players were playing here, there and everywhere, they are trying to spread the playing resources across the regions but that doesn't promote a team ethos either, the best solution is to get rid of one region at least and have bigger squads for the remaining regions, I'm not sure branding the regions as North Wales, South East Wales anmd South West Wales is a brilliant marketing strategy so keeping some sort of regionality to the naming is advisable.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Unless i read this wrongly,Son of Mathonwy, are you advocating that we should stick with 4 regions

I'd rather keep 4 even if 2 are poorly funded. Our teams often struggle to win matches despite current funding levels, so it wouldn't change too much to have 1 or 2 on significantly lower funding levels but giving our up and coming players good experience.

So they have said they are basing the salaries around the 36 players per squad model which is why they have introduced this loan system, I'm not sure people would buy into supporting a team if the players were playing here, there and everywhere, they are trying to spread the playing resources across the regions but that doesn't promote a team ethos either, the best solution is to get rid of one region at least and have bigger squads for the remaining regions, I'm not sure branding the regions as North Wales, South East Wales anmd South West Wales is a brilliant marketing strategy so keeping some sort of regionality to the naming is advisable.

South East and South West is "regionality" surely?

[Numbers]

I'd rather keep 4 even if 2 are poorly funded. Our teams often struggle to win matches despite current funding levels, so it wouldn't change too much to have 1 or 2 on significantly lower funding levels but giving our up and coming players good experience.

So they have said they are basing the salaries around the 36 players per squad model which is why they have introduced this loan system, I'm not sure people would buy into supporting a team if the players were playing here, there and everywhere, they are trying to spread the playing resources across the regions but that doesn't promote a team ethos either, the best solution is to get rid of one region at least and have bigger squads for the remaining regions, I'm not sure branding the regions as North Wales, South East Wales anmd South West Wales is a brilliant marketing strategy so keeping some sort of regionality to the naming is advisable.

South East and South West is "regionality" surely?

I mean something akin to what the regions are called now (sorry I didn't word that well at all), so something supporters could get behind, you can't market a team as South East Wales for instance, so they'll need to find a naming structure that suits, we really need to get down to 3 regions at the most to try and make it sustainable, the problem is who will agree to it?

[Sandydragon]

So they have said they are basing the salaries around the 36 players per squad model which is why they have introduced this loan system, I'm not sure people would buy into supporting a team if the players were playing here, there and everywhere, they are trying to spread the playing resources across the regions but that doesn't promote a team ethos either, the best solution is to get rid of one region at least and have bigger squads for the remaining regions, I'm not sure branding the regions as North Wales, South East Wales anmd South West Wales is a brilliant marketing strategy so keeping some sort of regionality to the naming is advisable.

South East and South West is "regionality" surely?

I mean something akin to what the regions are called now (sorry I didn't word that well at all), so something supporters could get behind, you can't market a team as South East Wales for instance, so they'll need to find a naming structure that suits, we really need to get down to 3 regions at the most to try and make it sustainable, the problem is who will agree to it?

And if the names are too similar, it will seem that one region has been lost rather than a total reset. It will be the anguish of the Warriors all over again as supporters refuse to support the new entities.

[Numbers]

South East and South West is "regionality" surely?

I mean something akin to what the regions are called now (sorry I didn't word that well at all), so something supporters could get behind, you can't market a team as South East Wales for instance, so they'll need to find a naming structure that suits, we really need to get down to 3 regions at the most to try and make it sustainable, the problem is who will agree to it?

And if the names are too similar, it will seem that one region has been lost rather than a total reset. It will be the anguish of the Warriors all over again as supporters refuse to support the new entities.

I suppose therein lies the issue, it's very difficult to start a team without any base support.

[Tuco Ramirez]

East West North...... different colours and no links to previous clubs playing in Stadiums which can alternate depending on hospitality etc.

West - Parc y Scarlets, Liberty, Brewery Field.

East Dave Parade CCS CAP

North - Rececourse, Parc Eirlys etc

Share the fixture, ZERO link to traditional clubs.

[Puja]

East West North...... different colours and no links to previous clubs playing in Stadiums which can alternate depending on hospitality etc.

West - Parc y Scarlets, Liberty, Brewery Field.

East Dave Parade CCS CAP

North - Rececourse, Parc Eirlys etc

Share the fixture, ZERO link to traditional clubs.

Will people turn up to watch those though?

Puja

[Sandydragon]

East West North...... different colours and no links to previous clubs playing in Stadiums which can alternate depending on hospitality etc.

West - Parc y Scarlets, Liberty, Brewery Field.

East Dave Parade CCS CAP

North - Rececourse, Parc Eirlys etc

Share the fixture, ZERO link to traditional clubs.

Will people turn up to watch those though?

Puja

Not automatically. Most dragons supports are really Newport supporters deep down, same for the other regions. Perhaps if they can win some games then crowds will follow success but it’s a fair comment that the welsh public hasn’t really taken to the regions

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't always agree with Warburton but, yes:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... r-26327419

[UKHamlet]

Cardiff supporters wouldn't watch an East Wales team. There is intense rivalry between Cardiff and Newport that I wouldn't expect a Jack to understand. We'd be better off allying to Llanelli, who have a similar enmity with Swansea. We dislike Swansea teams, but it doesn't contain the element of friction Newport does.

This whole idea is utterly risible

[Tuco Ramirez]

Cardiff supporters wouldn't watch an East Wales team. There is intense rivalry between Cardiff and Newport that I wouldn't expect a Jack to understand. We'd be better off allying to Llanelli, who have a similar enmity with Swansea. We dislike Swansea teams, but it doesn't contain the element of friction Newport does.

This whole idea is utterly risible

fuck Cardiff supporters, with the greatest respect Martyn. They can watch the club side. thats been the trouble with Welsh rugby - parochialism

[Sandydragon]

I with Tuco on this one. If supporting Newport means that I have to watch them in the Prem instead then thats fair enough. We are in this mess because we can't break out of the old club dominance model and the regions are just clubs on steroids. Better to make a clean break. In an ideal world there would be enough money for a full pro 10 club premiership that meant we didn't need the regions, but thats not going to happen. We can afford 2, maybe 3, properly funded teams with 1-2 development teams. Thats it really.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Let's not shake things up too much. The regions are not perfect but with the geography there's no great way of dividing the country, rugby-wise. The most important thing would be to get them under central control (or at least part-ownership) and reduce one or two to development status while money is tight.

Ideally the regions ought to be fully inclusive of all clubs in their area - ideally by not allowing one club to dominate the identity, colours or region name (I appreciate Cardiff will probably buck this trend . . . which is why the original 5 region setup made more sense . . . however we can't go back). So 'Ospreys' and 'Dragons' are good names, 'Scarlets' and 'Blues' not so good. How about Druids, Celts . . . fecking daffodils . . . whatever as long as it's an identity which doesn't offend whole sections of the region.

[Tuco Ramirez]

Howley also said EAST and WEST on WLOL

[Sandydragon]

East and West would make the most sense, with a Northern team for development. Just been reading that some Cardiff players who were on 6 figure salaries are being offered £30K for next season. Clearly we can't afford 4 teams and need to stop kicking about trying to spread the jam that far. East and West along the M4 corridor would encompass the Premiership clubs and give that a natural top tier.