England v Argentina

[Donny osmond]

Fuck knows how the rugby will go but, fwcin seriously, Wilkinson, Woodward and Dallaglio? It's going to be a loooong night

[bruce]

He may well be a nice fella, but jebus Jonny is dull.

[Donny osmond]

Sorry England but I really fancy Arg for this one. England will need to be an order of magnitude above what we've seen recently to win this. The players are still capable enough, but they're just lacking cohesion and organisation and Argentina will have their tails up and be up for this in a way that's hard to put into words. This is a big big test for England.

[Galfon]

Not the best start.

[switchskier]

Don't see hear contact there. What am I missimg?

[Donny osmond]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

[Puja]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

[Donny osmond]

That turn over cannot have been legal but the 50 - 22 kick after was immense

[Mr Mwenda]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

That's what drives the interest from me. Rugby union has never managed any consistency around video reffing from day 1. It always just feels shit.

[pompey-zebra]

Pumas so conservative, England fully deserve the lead

[Son of Mathonwy]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

They both look like yellow to me but if one was red it was Carreras's.

[bruce]

England playing well with13 men. Argentina have been woeful, SH teams not great so far.

[Donny osmond]

It's been a long long time since I saw Argentina play this badly. A lot of that, tbf, is England have played better than we've seen for a while too, but really the tale of this is Argentina gift wrapping it for England

[Puja]

England going back to the olden days with that opening match at a RWC: https://www.americasrugbynews.com/2020/ ... tina-1995/

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

They both look like yellow to me but if one was red it was Carreras's.

Hoping that Curry's one is overturned on appeal, as I would agree should both have been yellows.

Puja

[BaldiePete]

It's been a long long time since I saw Argentina play this badly. A lot of that, tbf, is England have played better than we've seen for a while too, but really the tale of this is Argentina gift wrapping it for England

They were shit when we (Scotland) put 52 points on them last November. They blow hot one week and cold the next.

[UKHamlet]

Didn't see that coming. But it's nice to see England reverting to type and winning with multiples of three. Borthwick should send Farrell home now. His services are no longer required.

[UKHamlet]

It's been a long long time since I saw Argentina play this badly. A lot of that, tbf, is England have played better than we've seen for a while too, but really the tale of this is Argentina gift wrapping it for England

I wouldn't denigrate England's performance. They played the perfect game for the occasion.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Wow, that was next level cluelessness from Argentina. Fair play to Ford, his drop goals caused the greatest collective losing of shit ever seen.

[morepork]

Didn't see that coming. But it's nice to see England reverting to type and winning with multiples of three. Borthwick should send Farrell home now. His services are no longer required.

Farrell is at the bottom of a bottle of gin scowling at the juke box playing George Formby songs at high volume.

[pompey-zebra]

It's been a long long time since I saw Argentina play this badly. A lot of that, tbf, is England have played better than we've seen for a while too, but really the tale of this is Argentina gift wrapping it for England

I wouldn't denigrate England's performance. They played the perfect game for the occasion.

And they did, but if you're ever going to get an armchair ride when down to 14 men for an hour then this was it.

[Lizard]

1 try to nil. Moral victory to the Pumas.

[canta_brian]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

I’m not sure the change in height argument holds when someone is returning to earth after jumping. That gravity will act on the player is reasonably predictable.

The issue for Curry is that he is trying to tackle too high. The targeting of the ball and attempts to create a maul looking for a defensive turnover have encouraged this sort of tackle for a few years now and the result has been more head to head contacts.

Carreras wasn’t far away from getting a charge down. Yellow seems about right.

[Donny osmond]

It's been a long long time since I saw Argentina play this badly. A lot of that, tbf, is England have played better than we've seen for a while too, but really the tale of this is Argentina gift wrapping it for England

I wouldn't denigrate England's performance. They played the perfect game for the occasion.

You're right, given where they were a couple of months ago, that was a near perfect performance, particularly from Ford. Question is, can they build on that and will a world cup allow them the time and space to build on that? Do they want to build on that... they could go a long way in this competition playing effective 10 man rugby.

[Cameo]

Both those cards felt like rugby incidents rather than clear cards. Can't believe Curry has been upgraded to red, that is harsg

If Curry's is a red (and I don't see how much more change in height you can get than someone landing from a jump into contact), then I don't see how Carreras jumping into Ford's head is not a red.

Puja

I think both were at least yellows but agree it seems harsh for one to be a red and the other remain as a yellow.

The thing is on Curry's though is that, while there is a change in height, I can see why they didn't see it as a mitigating factor in the circumstance. It was predictable for anyone who has heard of gravity and, unless Curry's defence is that he planned to take the man out in the air, it should have been taken into account when choosing how high to tackle. Saying "I didn't go in too upright, he was 3 feet in the air when I went in for the tackle doesn't seem a good defence".

Anyway, Argentina were dreadful (as they reasonably often are) and England adapted well to being down to 14 (as they reasonably often do). Ford was great.

Anyone think that they came in with a drop goal plan irrespective of the cards. If their kicking game gets them plenty of territory but they can't score tries, drop kicks aren't the worst solution.

Edit: sorry, only saw canta_brian's post after I had repeated him.

[Which Tyler]

Farrell is at the bottom of a bottle of gin scowling at the juke box playing George Formby songs at high volume.

Nah, Owen's allergic to the name "George" right now

On the cards, time to put my opinions above the parapet, acknowledging that I'm significantly further to the "player safety" end of the line than average for this board.


For me, "rugby incident" is where a players takes the mitigating action, but it wasn't enough. You did everything right, but shit still happened. Otherwise, even if accidental, it's still illegal - a precedent established 10ish years ago with challenges in the air or being jumped into.

As the aim is to reduce concussive injuries, it doesn't really matter if it was deliberate or not - the brain is getting shaken about inside the skull.


For Curry, specifically:

It's one of those that (for me) is "harsh but fair" accidental, but he had options he chose not to take.

He could have taken a step back / delayed his entry, watching Mallia's foot to judge his landing, which would have allowed him to bend his hips and hit lower, aim for the midriff, bend him in 2 and drive him backwards a couple of metres in the tackle, leaving Daly (I think Daly) was the other tackler) on his feet and able to jackal for the ball.
Alternatively he could have realised that he'd cocked up, and Mallia was closer to him than he expected, and bailed from making the tackle, leaving it to Daly (?), who was also there, and was plenty low enough. I think it was May who did precisely that later in the game, ref and TMO looked at it, and decided no fault or penalty (can't remember now)
But he didn't. He chose to watch Mallia's shoulders, to judge where the ball was, so that he could hit around the ball, and either dislodge it, or wrap it up in the tackle to slow presentation - which meant that when Mallia obeyed the laws of gravity, he was hitting shoulder to shoulder, and head to head.
​Curry could have mitigated, but didn't, so whilst accidental, he doesn't get mitigation applied in the review process, and red is the decision that's correct in law (and IMO, needs to be the correct decision if we're trying to get players to make difference decisions).


​For Carreras, specifically:

Did Ford's shoulder absorb most of the impact before reaching the head, or not - I didn't see enough during the match to make that call, so have to trust that the bunker TMO did. If the full(ish) force went into Ford's head, then it really should have been a red as well. It was certainly more reckless but a less dangerous contact in terms of concussion (but not in terms of whiplash).


ETA: What does annoy me is that neither Mallia nor Curry (nor Ford) underwent an HIA. If there's a cardable head contact, then by definition there's been a potentially concussive head contact, and by definition there should be an HIA.