Rebuilding

[UKHamlet]

We're short of players. In an ideal world the caps rule would be fine. It protects the regions. In that ideal world I'd have any player outside Wales barred from representing the country. But it isn't an ideal world and we don't produce enough players to attempt to restrict their employment prospects.

The regions have just got to weather the storm. It'll balance itself out in the end when the French clubs realise that Welsh players will disappear for a third of the season and all the English clubs are in administration.

Then we have to look at Welsh grannies. We got burned but we need to go back to Henry's principle of if they once ate a bakestone they're Welsh. Plunder the Polys and have no qualms about it. Just to fill the gaps. Ireland and Scotland have shown the way to make this work.

We need a couple of loose forwards, maybe a front row specialist, a spare 10, a couple of centres, and a back line player.

I see LRZ's future at 15, because his principle asset of pace isn't enough on its own to make him a deadly winger at international level. We saw hiw easily he's shephered away from the ball against Argentina.

We have a couple of young bucks coming through at centre, but the best of them is at Exeter. We should make a selective exception to bring him into the fold.

Adams, North, and Tomkins have maybe two international seasons left, so we need to have replacements ready to go, especially Adams, whose role is crucial to our style. North has been a moderate success at centre. I say moderate because he doesn't score enough tries, although he does attract the attention of defenders. Tomkins will be more difficult to replace. He's essentially a classic centre: good feet, fast, tough, but not a true 2nd 5/8. We need a Halaholo type figure to replace him.

Standoff is a real problem. We have one goodish player who may come good. They're also at a premium on the international scene. Ideally, we need someone with Biggar's attitude and Anscombe's skill set.

We're reasonably okay at 9. Although Gareth's retirement will take a huge chunk out of our defensive organisation.

In the back row we have a shed load of sevens and nothing else. Wainwright wants to play 8 but I genuinely see him as a 6. He doesn't bring much to the lineout and I don't think he carries particularly effectively. We need a rangy ball carrier who can catch. Christ, similarly, may develop into a useful 6 but he's not there yet.

At lock, I think we're looking reasonably okay. I know Beard doesn't get many plaudits, but he's incredibly good at disrupting mauls, plus he does a fair bit of the dirty stuff. Dafydd may develop into useful lock with time.

The front row is a conundrum. We have a few goodish hookers, none of whom are the complete package. As ever tight head is a problem. Our starters are okay, but our second string look weak.

We need to go shopping.

[pompey-zebra]

A good summary there , Hammy which goes to show the scale of the rebuilding necessary. We'll lose many of the remaining old guard soon enough if not immediately after the the RWC, so I'd keep faith with the younger players on the fringes of the RWC squad, the liked of Christ, Jenkins, Grady etc. They may not be the finished article but unless and until better players come along, then it would be a shame to waste the experience they've gained. Similarly with the players in the training squad, who didn't make it to the RWC. Then we look to see who else is out there whether it be players not previously considered/eligible, or even revisiting some of the many players capped under Pivac who have dropped out of contention for whatever reason. As you suggest, we're not in such a strong position in Wales that we can afford not to look at all options.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We're obviously going to lose quite a few to retirement - some early because the money isn't good enough in Wales (eg Webb, Anscombe, Hawkins ), and then a lot will leave Wales because of the 25 cap rule, which will not help our coherence (which will always leave us struggling to match Ireland).

10 is a real, immediate problem, with Biggar and Anscombe disappearing. We have Costelow and who else?? Patchell has been poached by the Kiwis and is short of 25 caps, so he's long gone. Jarrod Evans is similarly unavailable at Harlequins. Callum Sheedy is also short of 25 caps, at Bristol (although I'm not sure if he had an offer to play in Wales last time - is he captured by the rule I wonder?).

We have Owen Williams of course, but he is 31 now. The other Welsh players at the regions are:

Ospreys: Luke Scully 23
Scarlets: Dan Jones 27, Ioan Lloyd 23
Cardiff: Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Will Reed 21

I'd say that O'Brien and Evans are options now and we'll see how Lloyd and Reed go.

It's a shame that the Ospreys have (Aussie) Walsh and Cardiff have (Saffer) de Beer, could do with sharing the WQ players around to give them more experience.

[Sandydragon]

We're obviously going to lose quite a few to retirement - some early because the money isn't good enough in Wales (eg Webb, Anscombe, Hawkins ), and then a lot will leave Wales because of the 25 cap rule, which will not help our coherence (which will always leave us struggling to match Ireland).

10 is a real, immediate problem, with Biggar and Anscombe disappearing. We have Costelow and who else?? Patchell has been poached by the Kiwis and is short of 25 caps, so he's long gone. Jarrod Evans is similarly unavailable at Harlequins. Callum Sheedy is also short of 25 caps, at Bristol (although I'm not sure if he had an offer to play in Wales last time - is he captured by the rule I wonder?).

We have Owen Williams of course, but he is 31 now. The other Welsh players at the regions are:

Ospreys: Luke Scully 23
Scarlets: Dan Jones 27, Ioan Lloyd 23
Cardiff: Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Will Reed 21

I'd say that O'Brien and Evans are options now and we'll see how Lloyd and Reed go.

It's a shame that the Ospreys have (Aussie) Walsh and Cardiff have (Saffer) de Beer, could do with sharing the WQ players around to give them more experience.

Your last point is critical. One of those players could be a great international, but we may never know as they won’t get an opportunity to develop. The regions should be sharing resources and if that means a potential Welsh player in any position needs to move because is current region is a bit crowded then so be it. But I’m not sure that level of cooperation will be happening.

[Sandydragon]

Otherwise I’ve been a fan of OBrian for a while now at full back but I think his ship has sailed.

Reed is promising but a bit early maybe. That said with biggar now gone and Costelow also a youngster there should be a real incentive for our young tens to push for a six nations squad place. Hopefully that competition could bring a couple of them through.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We're obviously going to lose quite a few to retirement - some early because the money isn't good enough in Wales (eg Webb, Anscombe, Hawkins ), and then a lot will leave Wales because of the 25 cap rule, which will not help our coherence (which will always leave us struggling to match Ireland).

10 is a real, immediate problem, with Biggar and Anscombe disappearing. We have Costelow and who else?? Patchell has been poached by the Kiwis and is short of 25 caps, so he's long gone. Jarrod Evans is similarly unavailable at Harlequins. Callum Sheedy is also short of 25 caps, at Bristol (although I'm not sure if he had an offer to play in Wales last time - is he captured by the rule I wonder?).

We have Owen Williams of course, but he is 31 now. The other Welsh players at the regions are:

Ospreys: Luke Scully 23
Scarlets: Dan Jones 27, Ioan Lloyd 23
Cardiff: Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Will Reed 21

I'd say that O'Brien and Evans are options now and we'll see how Lloyd and Reed go.

It's a shame that the Ospreys have (Aussie) Walsh and Cardiff have (Saffer) de Beer, could do with sharing the WQ players around to give them more experience.

Your last point is critical. One of those players could be a great international, but we may never know as they won’t get an opportunity to develop. The regions should be sharing resources and if that means a potential Welsh player in any position needs to move because is current region is a bit crowded then so be it. But I’m not sure that level of cooperation will be happening.

Agreed. Costelow and Lloyd (and Dan Jones) at the same club is particularly bad. I guess O'Brien will continue to play full back most of the time? Cai Evans, who knows, but it's easy to see him being wasted as an utility back, never having a chance to concentrate. Hopefully the same doesn't happen to Lloyd.

I imagine no much cooperation will happen. I expect it would take a new service agreement to get that (and other essentials like unifying the approach to fitness, skills and tactics across the regions).

Oh yeah, I forgot Sam Davies, now at Grenoble and ineligible due to lack of caps.

[Sourdust]

I think we're going to have to swallow our pride regarding the caps rule; it was an idea worth trying but as things have turned out, it's just a big clumsy stick with no carrot anywhere to be seen. We can't force players to choose between playing for Wales OR making a decent living, and then be surprised at the answer. If we want to keep them, we have to find ways to pay them, end of.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think we're going to have to swallow our pride regarding the caps rule; it was an idea worth trying but as things have turned out, it's just a big clumsy stick with no carrot anywhere to be seen. We can't force players to choose between playing for Wales OR making a decent living, and then be surprised at the answer. If we want to keep them, we have to find ways to pay them, end of.

The WRU need to (secretly) assess this over the next couple of seasons maybe, and decide whether the caps rule (at 25) is doing them harm or good overall. How many players would we really like to select who are barred only by that rule? If it's only one or two (ie players we would have in the 23), then maybe there's benefit. If there are many more, or there's a real star we're missing out on, then they need to change the rule (change the number or make exceptions) or drop it completely. Or the WRU needs to think about subsidising top players' wages again (I don't really get how they decided to completely stop).

[Sandydragon]

I liked the cap rule at first and I think the regions benefitted as well. But, it’s clearly not going to work on the current climate and unless the WRU can subsidise the regions, it needs to be suspended. Happy for Hatland to pick Welsh based players in preference to those overseas but where there’s a clear talent then he should be able to select the squad he wants. At least for a couple of seasons and hopefully by then we can get the regions back to some form of normality and reintroduce that restriction.

[Sourdust]

There aren't that many, but we really can't afford to be without ANY - especially backs.

Biggar is gone, we can expect retirements from ½p and Sanjay any day now (perhaps after the Baa-baas?) and it's possible North and Davies are also pondering. We're going into a 6N in 4 months' time with Costelow as our frontline 10 (I rate him, but he's clearly not ready) and LRZ as our fullback by default. In such a situation, it's ludicrous that (e.g.) Joe Hawkins is ineligible by our own choice.

[pompey-zebra]

So out of interest I looked up the RWC training squad just to see who was left after taking out the more established players. We had:

Props
Domachowsky
Mathias
Assirratti
H Thomas
Davies- king

Hookers
Lake

2nd row
Carter
R Davies
Jenkins
Tshiunza
T Williams

Back row
Morgan
Reffell
Basham( a bit more established but not a regular)

SH
Hardy ( again more established but not a regular, plus there was no one else newer at 9)

FH
Costellow

Centres
Grady
Llewellyn
J Roberts
J Williams
K Williams

Back three
Dyer
Evans
Rogers

So we could in theory get a xv from that with at least some positions covered on.the bench. It would certainly be callow, but something to build on at least

[Son of Mathonwy]

So out of interest I looked up the RWC training squad just to see who was left after taking out the more established players. We had:

Props
Domachowsky
Mathias
Assirratti
H Thomas
Davies- king

Hookers
Lake

2nd row
Carter
R Davies
Jenkins
Tshiunza
T Williams

Back row
Morgan
Reffell
Basham( a bit more established but not a regular)

SH
Hardy ( again more established but not a regular, plus there was no one else newer at 9)

FH
Costellow

Centres
Grady
Llewellyn
J Roberts
J Williams
K Williams

Back three
Dyer
Evans
Rogers

So we could in theory get a xv from that with at least some positions covered on.the bench. It would certainly be callow, but something to build on at least

Yes, and thankfully we won't be losing all of the experienced players. Here's the current squad sorted by age:

Age Player Caps Position
34 Leigh Halfpenny 101 Fullback
34 Dan Lydiate 72 Back row
33 Gareth Davies 74 Scrum-half
33 Dan Biggar 112 Fly-half
32 Will Rowlands 29 Lock
32 Taulupe Faletau 102 Back row
32 Liam Williams 89 Fullback
32 Gareth Anscombe 37 Fly-half
31 Tomas Francis 77 Prop
31 Henry Thomas 4 Prop
31 George North 118 Centre
30 Gareth Thomas 26 Prop
29 Nicky Smith 46 Prop
29 Elliot Dee 46 Hooker
28 Tomos Williams 53 Scrum-half
28 Ryan Elias 38 Hooker
28 Nick Tompkins 32 Centre
28 Josh Adams 54 Wing
27 Kieran Hardy 18 Scrum-half
27 Dillon Lewis 54 Prop
27 Adam Beard 51 Lock
26 Johnny Williams 7 Centre
26 Corey Domachowski 6 Prop
26 Aaron Wainwright 43 Back row
24 Tommy Reffell 13 Back row
24 Taine Basham 16 Back row
24 Dewi Lake (cc) 12 Hooker
23 Rio Dyer 14 Wing
23 Jac Morgan (cc) 15 Back row
22 Sam Costelow 8 Fly-half
22 Louis Rees-Zammit 32 Wing
21 Mason Grady 6 Centre
21 Christ Tshiunza 10 Lock
20 Dafydd Jenkins 12 Lock

Obviously the top few won't be with us much longer. Everyone down to Anscombe will presumably go soon - with the exception of Rowlands and Faletau, who I think have a few years left, possibly another world cup.

Then we have a few front rowers from 28-31 who should be good till the next WC.

North stands out as a back at 31. But it's really down to him. He could well make the next WC and we need him now. Hopefully he'll stick around.

Below that we have some 28 year old backs, Tomos Williams, Tompkins, Adams, who should be fine. Everyone else is 27 or younger.

So . . . the only immediate age related problems are fly half and full back. In neither is there a experienced player who can step in. The next in line (Costelow and, it seems, LRZ) both have a lot to learn and to be honest I'm not 100% convinced about either of them (in LRZ's case that means I'm not convinced about moving him from the wing, where he is obviously world class).

Obviously we have an outstanding issue with 6 and 8 where Faletau may be reaching the end and there is only Wainwright at the right sort of level.

And there's centre where there's a big drop in level after the Tompkins/North pairing. We need backup.

[UKHamlet]

One of the aspects of the QFs that caught my attention is the sheer muscularity of the South African, NZ, Irish, and to a lesser extent the Argentinian players. Even little dwts like Kolbe are full on stringy balls of muscle. By contrast, despite our much vaunted fitness, it seems to me that a lot of our players are carrying flab. There are exceptions, of course but even Jac looks a bit wobbly. You expect the front row to be porcine but the rest need to be butcher's dogs, and even then the Irish, Saffer, and NZ front rows appear to be generally quite cut. Is this a concern? I'm not sure. There certainly seems to be a place for uncompromisingly muscular back row men.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Also, we have no Joneses!! We need to sort this out ASAP.

[Son of Mathonwy]

One of the aspects of the QFs that caught my attention is the sheer muscularity of the South African, NZ, Irish, and to a lesser extent the Argentinian players. Even little dwts like Kolbe are full on stringy balls of muscle. By contrast, despite our much vaunted fitness, it seems to me that a lot of our players are carrying flab. There are exceptions, of course but even Jac looks a bit wobbly. You expect the front row to be porcine but the rest need to be butcher's dogs, and even then the Irish, Saffer, and NZ front rows appear to be generally quite cut. Is this a concern? I'm not sure. There certainly seems to be a place for uncompromisingly muscular back row men.

I don't know why this has never really been dealt with. Top fitness isn't something reserved for world cups, it needs to be maintained. Is this a cultural thing? Other than some self-driven individuals do the others really need a boot camp to force them to keep this level up?

The new WRU management has to bring in a cross-regional fitness program. But will the regions cooperate?

[pompey-zebra]

One of the aspects of the QFs that caught my attention is the sheer muscularity of the South African, NZ, Irish, and to a lesser extent the Argentinian players. Even little dwts like Kolbe are full on stringy balls of muscle. By contrast, despite our much vaunted fitness, it seems to me that a lot of our players are carrying flab. There are exceptions, of course but even Jac looks a bit wobbly. You expect the front row to be porcine but the rest need to be butcher's dogs, and even then the Irish, Saffer, and NZ front rows appear to be generally quite cut. Is this a concern? I'm not sure. There certainly seems to be a place for uncompromisingly muscular back row men.

I don't know why this has never really been dealt with. Top fitness isn't something reserved for world cups, it needs to be maintained. Is this a cultural thing? Other than some self-driven individuals do the others really need a boot camp to force them to keep this level up?

The new WRU management has to bring in a cross-regional fitness program. But will the regions cooperate?

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

[Tuco Ramirez]

There aren't that many, but we really can't afford to be without ANY - especially backs.

Biggar is gone, we can expect retirements from ½p and Sanjay any day now (perhaps after the Baa-baas?) and it's possible North and Davies are also pondering. We're going into a 6N in 4 months' time with Costelow as our frontline 10 (I rate him, but he's clearly not ready) and LRZ as our fullback by default. In such a situation, it's ludicrous that (e.g.) Joe Hawkins is ineligible by our own choice.

intersting take - although being a pedant, i would say Morgan is pretty much established

[Sandydragon]

So out of interest I looked up the RWC training squad just to see who was left after taking out the more established players. We had:

Props
Domachowsky
Mathias
Assirratti
H Thomas
Davies- king

Hookers
Lake

2nd row
Carter
R Davies
Jenkins
Tshiunza
T Williams

Back row
Morgan
Reffell
Basham( a bit more established but not a regular)

SH
Hardy ( again more established but not a regular, plus there was no one else newer at 9)

FH
Costellow

Centres
Grady
Llewellyn
J Roberts
J Williams
K Williams

Back three
Dyer
Evans
Rogers

So we could in theory get a xv from that with at least some positions covered on.the bench. It would certainly be callow, but something to build on at least

Yes, and thankfully we won't be losing all of the experienced players. Here's the current squad sorted by age:

Age Player Caps Position
34 Leigh Halfpenny 101 Fullback
34 Dan Lydiate 72 Back row
33 Gareth Davies 74 Scrum-half
33 Dan Biggar 112 Fly-half
32 Will Rowlands 29 Lock
32 Taulupe Faletau 102 Back row
32 Liam Williams 89 Fullback
32 Gareth Anscombe 37 Fly-half
31 Tomas Francis 77 Prop
31 Henry Thomas 4 Prop
31 George North 118 Centre
30 Gareth Thomas 26 Prop
29 Nicky Smith 46 Prop
29 Elliot Dee 46 Hooker
28 Tomos Williams 53 Scrum-half
28 Ryan Elias 38 Hooker
28 Nick Tompkins 32 Centre
28 Josh Adams 54 Wing
27 Kieran Hardy 18 Scrum-half
27 Dillon Lewis 54 Prop
27 Adam Beard 51 Lock
26 Johnny Williams 7 Centre
26 Corey Domachowski 6 Prop
26 Aaron Wainwright 43 Back row
24 Tommy Reffell 13 Back row
24 Taine Basham 16 Back row
24 Dewi Lake (cc) 12 Hooker
23 Rio Dyer 14 Wing
23 Jac Morgan (cc) 15 Back row
22 Sam Costelow 8 Fly-half
22 Louis Rees-Zammit 32 Wing
21 Mason Grady 6 Centre
21 Christ Tshiunza 10 Lock
20 Dafydd Jenkins 12 Lock

Obviously the top few won't be with us much longer. Everyone down to Anscombe will presumably go soon - with the exception of Rowlands and Faletau, who I think have a few years left, possibly another world cup.

Then we have a few front rowers from 28-31 who should be good till the next WC.

North stands out as a back at 31. But it's really down to him. He could well make the next WC and we need him now. Hopefully he'll stick around.

Below that we have some 28 year old backs, Tomos Williams, Tompkins, Adams, who should be fine. Everyone else is 27 or younger.

So . . . the only immediate age related problems are fly half and full back. In neither is there a experienced player who can step in. The next in line (Costelow and, it seems, LRZ) both have a lot to learn and to be honest I'm not 100% convinced about either of them (in LRZ's case that means I'm not convinced about moving him from the wing, where he is obviously world class).

Obviously we have an outstanding issue with 6 and 8 where Faletau may be reaching the end and there is only Wainwright at the right sort of level.

And there's centre where there's a big drop in level after the Tompkins/North pairing. We need backup.

There's a definite balance to be struck here. Faletau and Rowlands are both the wrong side of 30, but both are still more than capable of performing at the international level. Unless they decide to walk away, I'd be very keen to keep their experience, whilst perhaps allowing someone else (Wainwright?) more game time at 8 for some games and managing Faletau's workload. Same for Rowlands.

There will be retirements in our backline. Maybe North fancies another crack at the Lions? Tompkins could make the next RWC, he would only be 32 which isn't inconceivable. Since he's just established himself under Garland, I hope he is keen to do so. Some of our props are early 30s, but I'm less concerned about them, form and fitness permitting. Francis and Thomas playing at age 35 is less of an issue for a prop in my opinion.

Given that some key figures are absolutely gone as of now, I would be keen for the next Six Nations to focus on their replacements, so a new full back and fly half. Maybe a new centre. That's quite a lot of disruption in the back line, and assuming also that Davies retires, we need another good scrum half (assuming Tomas moves into first choice 9).

SO that would be a backline of

9. T Williams
10. Costelow (probably)
11. Adams
12. Tompkins
13. North
14. Dyer (maybe
15. LRZ (maybe)

Or else LRZ remains on the wing and a new full back is brought straight in.

[Sandydragon]

One of the aspects of the QFs that caught my attention is the sheer muscularity of the South African, NZ, Irish, and to a lesser extent the Argentinian players. Even little dwts like Kolbe are full on stringy balls of muscle. By contrast, despite our much vaunted fitness, it seems to me that a lot of our players are carrying flab. There are exceptions, of course but even Jac looks a bit wobbly. You expect the front row to be porcine but the rest need to be butcher's dogs, and even then the Irish, Saffer, and NZ front rows appear to be generally quite cut. Is this a concern? I'm not sure. There certainly seems to be a place for uncompromisingly muscular back row men.

I don't know why this has never really been dealt with. Top fitness isn't something reserved for world cups, it needs to be maintained. Is this a cultural thing? Other than some self-driven individuals do the others really need a boot camp to force them to keep this level up?

The new WRU management has to bring in a cross-regional fitness program. But will the regions cooperate?

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

This has been mentioned before, as have the basic skills that many players seem to be lacking. It's not Gatlands job to coach players to to pass. That has to start in the academies and then continue at regional level. Are players coasting at the regions knowing that they have a job regardless? Certainly the Irish provinces seem to play at a higher tempo than we can and skills and fitness play into that. Accepting that the Irish regions can afford better players is one thing, but why shouldn't a professional rugby player be as fit as a counterpart elsewhere? Carre being released for a lack of fitness is something that just shouldn't happen (barring injury of course).

[Son of Mathonwy]

One of the aspects of the QFs that caught my attention is the sheer muscularity of the South African, NZ, Irish, and to a lesser extent the Argentinian players. Even little dwts like Kolbe are full on stringy balls of muscle. By contrast, despite our much vaunted fitness, it seems to me that a lot of our players are carrying flab. There are exceptions, of course but even Jac looks a bit wobbly. You expect the front row to be porcine but the rest need to be butcher's dogs, and even then the Irish, Saffer, and NZ front rows appear to be generally quite cut. Is this a concern? I'm not sure. There certainly seems to be a place for uncompromisingly muscular back row men.

I don't know why this has never really been dealt with. Top fitness isn't something reserved for world cups, it needs to be maintained. Is this a cultural thing? Other than some self-driven individuals do the others really need a boot camp to force them to keep this level up?

The new WRU management has to bring in a cross-regional fitness program. But will the regions cooperate?

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

Clearly Gatland has been unable to fix this by himself in the past. Other than the change in WRU management I don't know what else is likely to bring progress. Which is crazy because surely it's obvious that it's best for everyone if we're all on the same page.

However, assuming there'll be no better cooperation/coordination than in the past, Gatland needs to force things from his side ie tell the players what is expected from them fitness-wise - monitor it over time, and if they don't make it they don't get selected. If they want to be in the squad for the new RWC cycle, they know what they have to do.

[Buggaluggs]

We are desperately short of leadership now. Without Biggar and to a lessor extent Liam Williams we lose shape and discipline.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We are desperately short of leadership now. Without Biggar and to a lessor extent Liam Williams we lose shape and discipline.

Although Biggar has to be calmed down sometimes .

I wonder if Morgan will now be sole captain, or (with the possible downgrading of Elias) will Lake stay as co-captain?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We're obviously going to lose quite a few to retirement - some early because the money isn't good enough in Wales (eg Webb, Anscombe, Hawkins ), and then a lot will leave Wales because of the 25 cap rule, which will not help our coherence (which will always leave us struggling to match Ireland).

10 is a real, immediate problem, with Biggar and Anscombe disappearing. We have Costelow and who else?? Patchell has been poached by the Kiwis and is short of 25 caps, so he's long gone. Jarrod Evans is similarly unavailable at Harlequins. Callum Sheedy is also short of 25 caps, at Bristol (although I'm not sure if he had an offer to play in Wales last time - is he captured by the rule I wonder?).

We have Owen Williams of course, but he is 31 now. The other Welsh players at the regions are:

Ospreys: Luke Scully 23
Scarlets: Dan Jones 27, Ioan Lloyd 23
Cardiff: Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Will Reed 21

I'd say that O'Brien and Evans are options now and we'll see how Lloyd and Reed go.

It's a shame that the Ospreys have (Aussie) Walsh and Cardiff have (Saffer) de Beer, could do with sharing the WQ players around to give them more experience.

Like a fool, I missed Dan Edwards (20) of the Ospreys. As a star of Wales U20 AND a Port Talbot boy he should be fast-tracked to the squad if Gatland's got any sense.

[Sandydragon]

If he’s looking at the 6 nations then I’d expect LRZ to be full back with Adams and Dyer on the wings. Possibly a bit soon for a new player but we need to build some depth over the summer tours etc.