England A v Australia A

[Which Tyler]

England A v Australia A 17th November 2024, hosted at The Twickenham Stoop with a 14:00 GMT

Playing at the Stoop... why?
Taking it away from Twickenham? great.
Hoping just across the road? why?
If leaving Twickenham, why on earth, not take it outside of London, to a different rugby population? Surely Leicester, Bristol, or whoever else would be happy to host?

[Puja]

Agreed on the venue being annoying (I imagine the decision-making will have been around trying to drive a big crowd through people making a weekend of it, as well as the The Stoop being a cheaper option than Brizzle), but the actual fixture being in place is an excellent thing to have.

Apart from anything else, perfect opportunity to capture Regan Grace

Puja

[Oakboy]

I wonder if it's as simple as it being Quins' turn to host it, assuming A fixtures are shared around?

[Which Tyler]

Apart from anything else, perfect opportunity to capture Regan Grace

I think we can all agree to that!

[Mellsblue]

I imagine it’s a case of logistics. Players, kit, accommodation, broadcast kit etc etc. Plus you’re almost guaranteed a decent crowd in London for almost any sporting event - losers like us will be interested in watching Seb Atkinson finally don an England jersey but 99.999999999999% of the population couldn’t care less. Does feel like a missed opportunity, though.

[Mellsblue]

but the actual fixture being in place is an excellent thing to have.

Puja

Correct.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Agreed on the venue being annoying (I imagine the decision-making will have been around trying to drive a big crowd through people making a weekend of it, as well as the The Stoop being a cheaper option than Brizzle), but the actual fixture being in place is an excellent thing to have.

Apart from anything else, perfect opportunity to capture Regan Grace

Puja

Going to Twickenham is a complete faff. I really don't understand why you'd go there unless it's just a function of wanting to share the revenue around clubs that own their own ground.

[Scrumhead]

I’m quite excited by this fixture. This is much more like what I expected when it was announced that the A side was coming back. For it to be meaningful, they need to be competitive games against decent opposition. This is much more like it than Portugal reserves.

Given we’re looking at the A side as more of a pathway, it’ll be interesting to see who might get included from the U20s. I could definitely see Carnduff getting a run at 6.

I hope it’s not Skivington coaching though.

[Puja]

I’m quite excited by this fixture. This is much more like what I expected when it was announced that the A side was coming back. For it to be meaningful, they need to be competitive games against decent opposition. This is much more like it than Portugal reserves.

Given we’re looking at the A side as more of a pathway, it’ll be interesting to see who might get included from the U20s. I could definitely see Carnduff getting a run at 6.

I hope it’s not Skivington coaching though.

Same. Portugal 1sts would've been a decent fixture, but that one ended up being risible.

I'd import the U20s props straight into the A-team - I am adamantly against them being forced into regular international consideration before their time, but this is the ideal game to give them a bit of adult international experience without expectation and with plenty of time and expert support afterwards to help inculcate the lessons they'd learn against an international scrum. And it'd provide more useful information and development for England than chucking another A cap to a random journeyman.

Just off of the top of my head, we could go for:

1. Opoku-Fordjour
2. Langdon
3. Fasogbon (on the basis that he's more likely to be getting game-time at Glaws than Sela being behind 3 international tightheads)
4. Tuima
5. Coles
6. Carnduff
7. BCurry (c)
8. Fisilau/Barbeary

9. Englefield
10. FSmith (if he's 3rd choice at that point)
11. Murley
12. Kelly/SAtkinson/Ojomoh/Wimbush/the next hope
13. Beard
14. Hassell-Collins
15. Hendy


Obviously there'll be massive variation based on who's injured, who's in form, who's getting game time, etc, but that'd be a fun XV and probably good enough for an Australian second string.

Puja

[Banquo]

Pepper, Dingwall?

[Scrumhead]

I guess it depends how big the squad is and how much fringe players in the senior squad may switch across for this game.

I see where @Puja is coming from re. the props but personally I feel like there are other, slightly older players who it would be useful to put in this environment.

I’d be looking at something like:

1. Iyogun / Brantingham
2. Blake / Oghre
3. Harper / Fasogbon (or Sela)
4. Isiekwe / Sodeke (or Bailey)
5. Tuima / Tizard
6. Hill / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pepper
8. Barbeary / Fisilau
9. Quirke / Englefield
10. C. Atkinson / Johnson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Kelly
13. Joseph / Beard
14. Roebuck / Hendy
15. Carpenter / Hodge

I’m assuming Kpoku will be unavailable? If not, I’d have him over Sodeke or Bailey.

I put Hendy as a wing option to mirror the senior team’s set up of one smaller, tricky winger and one bigger, aerial option.

I also tried to put in a few club combinations like Hill and Barbeary or the Atkinsons.

[FKAS]

I'd agree with Scrumhead and look at the older props we have available. If any of the under 20s lads start the season in good form then fair enough but otherwise I'd like us to look at viable alternatives in the short term. Cole and Marler haven't got much left in the tank at international level so the likes of Ioygen, Harper, Brantingham, Haffar, maybe even Heyes could do with a bit of game time against international opposition.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah. I left Heyes out of this squad on the expectation that he might get game time off the bench with the seniors. At this point, I think we need to bite the bullet on phasing Cole out.

Maybe keep him in for NZ, SA, Ireland and France and go with Stuart and Heyes against Australia, Japan and the other 6N games. At some point someone is going to have to come in.

In the past we’ve had older guys like Ben Moon (albeit on the other side of the scrum) come in and be fine. Maybe that’s what we need for a year or so? Not sure who though? Scotland have turned Millar-Mills in to a serviceable test prop. Maybe we could do something similar?

TBH the only eligible candidate I can think of is Schonert, which kind of works against the longer term aim of wanting Harper to establish himself as first choice for Sale.

It would be very useful if Saracens can convert Brantingham into a tighthead.

[Banquo]

I guess it depends how big the squad is and how much fringe players in the senior squad may switch across for this game.

I see where @Puja is coming from re. the props but personally I feel like there are other, slightly older players who it would be useful to put in this environment.

I’d be looking at something like:

1. Iyogun / Brantingham
2. Blake / Oghre
3. Harper / Fasogbon (or Sela)
4. Isiekwe / Sodeke (or Bailey)
5. Tuima / Tizard
6. Hill / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pepper
8. Barbeary / Fisilau
9. Quirke / Englefield
10. C. Atkinson / Johnson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Kelly
13. Joseph / Beard
14. Roebuck / Hendy
15. Carpenter / Hodge

I’m assuming Kpoku will be unavailable? If not, I’d have him over Sodeke or Bailey.

I put Hendy as a wing option to mirror the senior team’s set up of one smaller, tricky winger and one bigger, aerial option.

I also tried to put in a few club combinations like Hill and Barbeary or the Atkinsons.

Justice for Dingwall. I think he'd be great for an 'a' team with his experience.

[Oakboy]

I guess it depends how big the squad is and how much fringe players in the senior squad may switch across for this game.

I see where @Puja is coming from re. the props but personally I feel like there are other, slightly older players who it would be useful to put in this environment.

I’d be looking at something like:

1. Iyogun / Brantingham
2. Blake / Oghre
3. Harper / Fasogbon (or Sela)
4. Isiekwe / Sodeke (or Bailey)
5. Tuima / Tizard
6. Hill / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pepper
8. Barbeary / Fisilau
9. Quirke / Englefield
10. C. Atkinson / Johnson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Kelly
13. Joseph / Beard
14. Roebuck / Hendy
15. Carpenter / Hodge

I’m assuming Kpoku will be unavailable? If not, I’d have him over Sodeke or Bailey.

I put Hendy as a wing option to mirror the senior team’s set up of one smaller, tricky winger and one bigger, aerial option.

I also tried to put in a few club combinations like Hill and Barbeary or the Atkinsons.

Justice for Dingwall. I think he'd be great for an 'a' team with his experience.

I suppose that depends on the main objective (currently) of an A fixture. Might the counter argument be that developing centres and props are the number one priority? If so, with Dingwall not having impressed at international level, would he be wasting an opportunity for someone else who might have realistic potential?

I'm not sure, overall, but I'd suggest that Dingwall's main (only?) claim is as an integral part of picking most of the Saints' back line. I doubt that Fin Smith and Freeman are going to be first choice 10/13 for a while yet. Picking all three for the A match??

[Mellsblue]

I guess it depends how big the squad is and how much fringe players in the senior squad may switch across for this game.

I see where @Puja is coming from re. the props but personally I feel like there are other, slightly older players who it would be useful to put in this environment.

I’d be looking at something like:

1. Iyogun / Brantingham
2. Blake / Oghre
3. Harper / Fasogbon (or Sela)
4. Isiekwe / Sodeke (or Bailey)
5. Tuima / Tizard
6. Hill / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pepper
8. Barbeary / Fisilau
9. Quirke / Englefield
10. C. Atkinson / Johnson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Kelly
13. Joseph / Beard
14. Roebuck / Hendy
15. Carpenter / Hodge

I’m assuming Kpoku will be unavailable? If not, I’d have him over Sodeke or Bailey.

I put Hendy as a wing option to mirror the senior team’s set up of one smaller, tricky winger and one bigger, aerial option.

I also tried to put in a few club combinations like Hill and Barbeary or the Atkinsons.

Justice for Dingwall. I think he'd be great for an 'a' team with his experience.

with Dingwall not having impressed at international level,

The same was said about Furbank after two caps…

[Oakboy]

Justice for Dingwall. I think he'd be great for an 'a' team with his experience.

with Dingwall not having impressed at international level,

The same was said about Furbank after two caps…

Good point. However, Furbank needed to beef up and be more effective which he did (it was do-able). I'd argue that Dingwall needs a yard of pace to step up from club level. I'd doubt that is possible.

[Banquo]

I guess it depends how big the squad is and how much fringe players in the senior squad may switch across for this game.

I see where @Puja is coming from re. the props but personally I feel like there are other, slightly older players who it would be useful to put in this environment.

I’d be looking at something like:

1. Iyogun / Brantingham
2. Blake / Oghre
3. Harper / Fasogbon (or Sela)
4. Isiekwe / Sodeke (or Bailey)
5. Tuima / Tizard
6. Hill / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pepper
8. Barbeary / Fisilau
9. Quirke / Englefield
10. C. Atkinson / Johnson
11. Murley / Ibitoye
12. S. Atkinson / Kelly
13. Joseph / Beard
14. Roebuck / Hendy
15. Carpenter / Hodge

I’m assuming Kpoku will be unavailable? If not, I’d have him over Sodeke or Bailey.

I put Hendy as a wing option to mirror the senior team’s set up of one smaller, tricky winger and one bigger, aerial option.

I also tried to put in a few club combinations like Hill and Barbeary or the Atkinsons.

Justice for Dingwall. I think he'd be great for an 'a' team with his experience.

I suppose that depends on the main objective (currently) of an A fixture. Might the counter argument be that developing centres and props are the number one priority? If so, with Dingwall not having impressed at international level, would he be wasting an opportunity for someone else who might have realistic potential?

I'm not sure, overall, but I'd suggest that Dingwall's main (only?) claim is as an integral part of picking most of the Saints' back line. I doubt that Fin Smith and Freeman are going to be first choice 10/13 for a while yet. Picking all three for the A match??

yeah, ditch Dingwall for his two cap failure in those awesome team displays

Why do you say he doesnt have realistic potential?

Why would u play Freeman at 13 for an 'a' team.

The question about whats the point is the valid part. But you cant develop players without some kind of experience or stucture.

[Banquo]

with Dingwall not having impressed at international level,

The same was said about Furbank after two caps…

Good point. However, Furbank needed to beef up and be more effective which he did (it was do-able). I'd argue that Dingwall needs a yard of pace to step up from club level. I'd doubt that is possible.

mike brown did.

[Mellsblue]

with Dingwall not having impressed at international level,

The same was said about Furbank after two caps…

Good point. However, Furbank needed to beef up and be more effective which he did (it was do-able). I'd argue that Dingwall needs a yard of pace to step up from club level. I'd doubt that is possible.

A) What Banquo said.
B) I’m not convinced Dingwall is the answer but two tests, in a dysfunctional backline, isn’t a good enough sample size given club form and oppo for the shirt.
C) The best Eng IC of the last 25 years (Greenwood not Hape) was pretty slow but had the smarts to be in the right place at the right time.
D) Our two current centres have virtually all the athletic gifts you’d want but they are playing bang average (there is mitigation that I’m not sure The Wigster is a top class attack coach).

[Mikey Brown]

Greenwood had a weird lolloping style that I think made him look a bit slower than he was, still not particularly fast but his vision and skills with the ball were simply lightyears ahead of anything I've seen from Dingwall. It's unfair to single out Dingwall specifically as being less skilled than Greenwood, but I don't really get the comparison. Greenwood had outstanding skills at the top level

I like Dingwall as a player but he looks a bit short of a particular standout skill. I do wish we'd given him another game during the 6 nations to try and settle in, but a partnership with Slade has never seemed like it would be threatening enough. There might be more balance with Lawrence/Freeman at 13 but they'd need to be trusted to run the defence. I agree he gels the Northampton midfield together very well, but without those other parts around him it's a much bigger ask for him to come in and make his mark as a 6/10 player.

I definitely agree that 12. Lawrence 13. Slade is missing something also.

[Mellsblue]

t
I don't really get the comparison. Greenwood had outstanding skills at the top level

The comparison was nothing more than an eg that pace isn’t a necessity to be a test 12 if everything else is there. I’d agree that Dingwall isn’t in Greenwood’s class but who of the options is?

[Oakboy]

t
I don't really get the comparison. Greenwood had outstanding skills at the top level

The comparison was nothing more than an eg that pace isn’t a necessity to be a test 12 if everything else is there. I’d agree that Dingwall isn’t in Greenwood’s class but who of the options is?

But, surely it's fair to say that IF a player is outstanding in all aspects EXCEPT pace, he can be an effective international - Greenwood. However, if a player is NOT exceptional, a lack of pace will be an impediment - Dingwall.

Back to the aims associated with A games, I'd see little point in picking Dingwall unless the management is convinced that he can improve significantly beyond what he's shown so far. To be fair, they may well think that after keeping him in the squad.

I think we will learn a lot from SB's AI squad selection. Would it be a surprise if he discarded quite a few of those who did not feature on tour?

[Mellsblue]

t
I don't really get the comparison. Greenwood had outstanding skills at the top level

The comparison was nothing more than an eg that pace isn’t a necessity to be a test 12 if everything else is there. I’d agree that Dingwall isn’t in Greenwood’s class but who of the options is?

But, surely it's fair to say that IF a player is outstanding in all aspects EXCEPT pace, he can be an effective international - Greenwood. However, if a player is NOT exceptional, a lack of pace will be an impediment - Dingwall.

It is fair and Greenwood was clearly test class (world class for me) but couldn’t kick (not literally, I know he can kick) and was an average defender.
I don’t think Dingers is quite test level, and certainly not Greenwood level, but (again) given his oppo for the jersey it would seem silly to write him off now based on the fact he’s not quick, which was your original point along with him ‘not having impressed at international level’.
One thing that does standout, for me, was that he was exceptional in Saints’ end of season knockout matches. Test match animal, innit.

[Mellsblue]

t
I don't really get the comparison. Greenwood had outstanding skills at the top level

The comparison was nothing more than an eg that pace isn’t a necessity to be a test 12 if everything else is there. I’d agree that Dingwall isn’t in Greenwood’s class but who of the options is?

I'd see little point in picking Dingwall unless the management is convinced that he can improve significantly beyond what he's shown so far.

What if they think he can only improve slightly but he has a higher ceiling than the other IC options? It’s hard to argue he wasn’t the best EQ IC in the Prem this season.