England No.5 going forwards?

[jngf]

I think there is a bit of a question mark over the England no.5 tight head lock berth in the run up to next RWC.

Assuming Itoje is the ongoing Captain / loosehead lock going forward - pairing him with Chessum at 5 seems the reliable/safety first option that I expect Busty Bin will plump for, non injury permitting and whilst I do think Chessum’s carrying game is a much better balance than other options e.g. Martin coupled with Itoje, to me there seems a bit of a lack of that intidimating power and scaryness to England’s second row and I’m not sure it will quite do the job against the Boks or French in the final analysis. Any thoughts?

[Danno]

I think you could just stick these questions in the EPS form thread

[Which Tyler]

Didn't you ask this same question last weekend?

[jngf]

Didn't you ask this same question last weekend?

No - didn’t you read it?

[FKAS]

Didn't you ask this same question last weekend?

That was "we need an alternative to Itoje", now it's Chessum isn't scary enough and George Martin doesn't carry (odd take).

Not sure I understand the issue. We've got three good locks with a range of skills. We could do with a fourth, whether Coles or Clark can step up. Kpoku returning ahead of the world cup could very much help that. Not many have his size and mobility.

[jngf]

Didn't you ask this same question last weekend?

That was "we need an alternative to Itoje", now it's Chessum isn't scary enough and George Martin doesn't carry (odd take).

Not sure I understand the issue. We've got three good locks with a range of skills. We could do with a fourth, whether Coles or Clark can step up. Kpoku returning ahead of the world cup could very much help that. Not many have his size and mobility.

What’s odd about that take? Have you actually ever watched a test match where he’s made an impactful carry?

[FKAS]

Didn't you ask this same question last weekend?

That was "we need an alternative to Itoje", now it's Chessum isn't scary enough and George Martin doesn't carry (odd take).

Not sure I understand the issue. We've got three good locks with a range of skills. We could do with a fourth, whether Coles or Clark can step up. Kpoku returning ahead of the world cup could very much help that. Not many have his size and mobility.

What’s odd about that take? Have you actually ever watched a test match where he’s made an impactful carry?

Yep. Tends to be over the gain line in the tight to start momentum as opposed to barnstorming. Which is a bit of a shame because he can offer more than that. Perhaps if he could stay fit and put a run of games together.

[jngf]

Olamide Sodeke and Joe Batley may both be worth taking a look at as part of Autumn Ais ?

[Which Tyler]

I think we need a thread on open sides, and a thread on blindsides, and a thread on blindsides who can cover open, and a thread on open sides who can cover blind...
And a thread on blindsides who can cover lock, and one for locks who can cover blindside.
No-one cares about numbers8 though - that's so last decade

[Scrumhead]

Olamide Sodeke and Joe Batley may both be worth taking a look at as part of Autumn Ais ?

Batley probably would have gone to Argentina but for the continuation of his bad habit of getting injured at exactly the wrong time. He’s an outside bet for the AIs but I don’t see it TBH.

Sodeke has virtually 0 chance. Itoje getting a post Lions rest will give him a shot of starting some games but he’s nowhere near being ready for senior test rugby. Have you watched him play? He’s massive and looks promising enough but I’ve never seen him put in a particularly eye-catching performance.

[fivepointer]

Think Arthur Clark is a player who could well blossom next season. Looks to have the size and technique to go further.

Batley is an unsung hero and a player i've got a lot of time for. Who knows, if he starts the season with a bang he might get an opportunity.

Sodeke is 20. Its too early, though i would like to see him get some Prem action.

[Beasties]

I think we need a thread on open sides, and a thread on blindsides, and a thread on blindsides who can cover open, and a thread on open sides who can cover blind...
And a thread on blindsides who can cover lock, and one for locks who can cover blindside.
No-one cares about numbers8 though - that's so last decade

What happened to the Itoje to No8 thread?

[Oakboy]

Each time I have watched the under-20s, I have been impressed by the three locks (one usually starts at 6). Getting them through a decent club development programme should be one of the priorities but we have a history of failure in that area. Is Chessum junior still playing, for example?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Each time I have watched the under-20s, I have been impressed by the three locks (one usually starts at 6). Getting them through a decent club development programme should be one of the priorities but we have a history of failure in that area. Is Chessum junior still playing, for example?

He is, and you're right in that we do need to sort our player development out, but you also have to factor in that not everyone who shows potential at age grade manages the step up. For various reasons to be fair.

Kpoku is getting lots of game time in France at lock and 6. Burrow and Sodeke had decents stints in the Champ last season, Prem Cup game time and got in and around the first team. I expect both to get more game time this season, and the start of the season is a good chnace for them to stake a claim.

[Puja]

I think we need a thread on open sides, and a thread on blindsides, and a thread on blindsides who can cover open, and a thread on open sides who can cover blind...
And a thread on blindsides who can cover lock, and one for locks who can cover blindside.
No-one cares about numbers8 though - that's so last decade

What happened to the Itoje to No8 thread?

Literally banned by mod decree.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Olamide Sodeke and Joe Batley may both be worth taking a look at as part of Autumn Ais ?

Batley probably would have gone to Argentina but for the continuation of his bad habit of getting injured at exactly the wrong time. He’s an outside bet for the AIs but I don’t see it TBH.

Sodeke has virtually 0 chance. Itoje getting a post Lions rest will give him a shot of starting some games but he’s nowhere near being ready for senior test rugby. Have you watched him play? He’s massive and looks promising enough but I’ve never seen him put in a particularly eye-catching performance.

I think Sodeke is an excellent prospect. I think he's got more potential than Kpoku, though the latter gets all the headlines and focus. Sodeke is very consistent, and consistently excellent.

[Oakboy]

Each time I have watched the under-20s, I have been impressed by the three locks (one usually starts at 6). Getting them through a decent club development programme should be one of the priorities but we have a history of failure in that area. Is Chessum junior still playing, for example?

He is, and you're right in that we do need to sort our player development out, but you also have to factor in that not everyone who shows potential at age grade manages the step up. For various reasons to be fair.

Kpoku is getting lots of game time in France at lock and 6. Burrow and Sodeke had decents stints in the Champ last season, Prem Cup game time and got in and around the first team. I expect both to get more game time this season, and the start of the season is a good chnace for them to stake a claim.

You know the junior scene much better than me obviously. I watched the under-20s and agreed with the enthusiasm for Pollock who steps up straight away to club 1st XV and international level. Yes, he's exceptional perhaps but was he more outstanding than those three above? Maybe, 2nd row is the hardest for juniors because of sheer strength/size. The other absolutely stunning prospect is the Bath hooker, Tuipulotu, isn't he? With him coming through, why would Bath block progress by signing Frost? To my uneducated brain, we just seem to not trust young players enough.

[Which Tyler]

[The other absolutely stunning prospect is the Bath hooker, Tuipulotu, isn't he? With him coming through, why would Bath block progress by signing Frost? To my uneducated brain, we just seem to not trust young players enough.

Because a club needs more than 1 senior hooker?

We've brought in Frost, but lost Annett, Faiva and Stewart.
Tuipulotu is 19 years old, with 9 senior appearances (2 in Europe), and is 3rd, possibly even 2nd choice hooker.
This time last year, he was 6th / 7th.

This doesn't really seem an example of not trusting youth.
And that's quite aside from my usual spiel about being 4 years away from having an adult skeleton.

It's possible to be TOO obsessed with the new, shiny toy

[Epaminondas Pules]

Each time I have watched the under-20s, I have been impressed by the three locks (one usually starts at 6). Getting them through a decent club development programme should be one of the priorities but we have a history of failure in that area. Is Chessum junior still playing, for example?

He is, and you're right in that we do need to sort our player development out, but you also have to factor in that not everyone who shows potential at age grade manages the step up. For various reasons to be fair.

Kpoku is getting lots of game time in France at lock and 6. Burrow and Sodeke had decents stints in the Champ last season, Prem Cup game time and got in and around the first team. I expect both to get more game time this season, and the start of the season is a good chnace for them to stake a claim.

You know the junior scene much better than me obviously. I watched the under-20s and agreed with the enthusiasm for Pollock who steps up straight away to club 1st XV and international level. Yes, he's exceptional perhaps but was he more outstanding than those three above? Maybe, 2nd row is the hardest for juniors because of sheer strength/size. The other absolutely stunning prospect is the Bath hooker, Tuipulotu, isn't he? With him coming through, why would Bath block progress by signing Frost? To my uneducated brain, we just seem to not trust young players enough.

I think van Graan will manage Kepu very closely. You don't want to fuck up a talent like that by overplaying them too early, or underplaying them. He's already played 9 first team games, inclduing Prem Cup, Prem, Cham Cup and Challenge Cup. Which for a first year out of school is nigh on unheard of in his position. I wouldn't be too concerned on that one.

[FKAS]

Is Chessum junior still playing, for example?

Had a long term injury, kept him out for the best part of a year (maybe a full year, can't remember). He returned I think played a bit of PRC and Champ for Notts and then went on loan to Japan for 6 months as part of Tigers partnership with Mitsubishi Dynoboars. He's in pre season training now but missing such a substantial period of his development due to injury might take some time to get over. Poor Josh Manz has been similarly hampered.

[Scrumhead]

Olamide Sodeke and Joe Batley may both be worth taking a look at as part of Autumn Ais ?

Batley probably would have gone to Argentina but for the continuation of his bad habit of getting injured at exactly the wrong time. He’s an outside bet for the AIs but I don’t see it TBH.

Sodeke has virtually 0 chance. Itoje getting a post Lions rest will give him a shot of starting some games but he’s nowhere near being ready for senior test rugby. Have you watched him play? He’s massive and looks promising enough but I’ve never seen him put in a particularly eye-catching performance.

I think Sodeke is an excellent prospect. I think he's got more potential than Kpoku, though the latter gets all the headlines and focus. Sodeke is very consistent, and consistently excellent.

Interesting. I’ll take your word for it then. I’d like to think I’m not the kind of observer who judges a lock on flashy stuff and can see excellence in nuts and bolts, but Sodeke has never really caught my eye positively or otherwise.

Even then - is he really a candidate for the AIs as @jngf suggested. I think that’s fanciful in the extreme.

Kind of agree on Kpoku - he’s a specimen and clearly has potential but often when I see him I think he’s trying to hard and does as many dumb things as he does good things …

[Epaminondas Pules]

Batley probably would have gone to Argentina but for the continuation of his bad habit of getting injured at exactly the wrong time. He’s an outside bet for the AIs but I don’t see it TBH.

Sodeke has virtually 0 chance. Itoje getting a post Lions rest will give him a shot of starting some games but he’s nowhere near being ready for senior test rugby. Have you watched him play? He’s massive and looks promising enough but I’ve never seen him put in a particularly eye-catching performance.

I think Sodeke is an excellent prospect. I think he's got more potential than Kpoku, though the latter gets all the headlines and focus. Sodeke is very consistent, and consistently excellent.

Interesting. I’ll take your word for it then. I’d like to think I’m not the kind of observer who judges a lock on flashy stuff and can see excellence in nuts and bolts, but Sodeke has never really caught my eye positively or otherwise.

Even then - is he really a candidate for the AIs as @jngf suggested. I think that’s fanciful in the extreme.

Kind of agree on Kpoku - he’s a specimen and clearly has potential but often when I see him I think he’s trying to hard and does as many dumb things as he does good things …

Not even close to being a candidate as it stands. I’d potentially have him train with the squad, but not as a squad pick.

[Danno]

I find it really odd that there are so many calls (not just here) to fast track 20 year olds into the national side in the last 5ish years.

I sort of understand that the results were dire so let's make some changes, but half of that was down to a coach at the end of his rope followed by one out of his depth. Swapping some forwards around to play the kids instead years before they're ready is very deckchairs+titanic

[Oakboy]

I find it really odd that there are so many calls (not just here) to fast track 20 year olds into the national side in the last 5ish years.

I sort of understand that the results were dire so let's make some changes, but half of that was down to a coach at the end of his rope followed by one out of his depth. Swapping some forwards around to play the kids instead years before they're ready is very deckchairs+titanic

You are right, of course. I think where some of the thought process begins is when older no-hopers keep getting picked (e.g. Ewels), injury-prone has-beens stay in the squad (e.g. Tuilagi, Billy V) and players in a great run of form get ignored (e.g. Simmonds). It's more 'we are crap and the youngsters could do no worse'.

Now, just as new shoots are sprouting and there is hope for a fresh group to develop, fucking Farrell is back on the edge of things. He is a comprehensive example of a player not quite good enough who should be nowhere near the squad now that Fin and Marcus are here.

Your titanic metaphor is apt but coming 3rd or 4th in the 6N could be evidence of 'time for a change' if 'the youngsters can't be any worse'.

To be fair, I think SB has the balance about right and he's obviously allowed a few mistakes on the way (Dombrandt/Willis etc.).

Having rambled, I still feel English rugby falls short of getting the best out of promising youngsters - my only reason for commenting in the first place.

[jngf]

I find it really odd that there are so many calls (not just here) to fast track 20 year olds into the national side in the last 5ish years.

I sort of understand that the results were dire so let's make some changes, but half of that was down to a coach at the end of his rope followed by one out of his depth. Swapping some forwards around to play the kids instead years before they're ready is very deckchairs+titanic

The reason is we have a dearth of older talent making any sort of truly convincing claim for that tight head lock berth imo - I’d actually (even) look at reintroducing Launchbury given the limitations of other options.