Digby wrote:Just reading about the charges brought against Chauvin, and it would seem he's actually rather more fecked in Minnesota than many other states. He's falling short of 1st degree murder and I don't think they have the death penalty anyway (good for them imo) but he's now been charged with 2nd degree murder bumped up from 3rd degree which carries with it a requirement you intended to kill, whereas the 3rd degree murder charge 'merely' requires you did something so dangerous you can be charged with murder even absent a specific intent. That being the case the 2nd degree charge looks a hard one to make stick, but the prosecutors are getting around that by citing the murder as a felony murder, a murder which took place during a crime (presumably assault) and then with the crime leading to the death he's on the hook for 2nd degree murder. Most states probably wouldn't allow the loophole, charging someone with a murder felony where the underlying crime that led to murder was the crime of murder, but it's allowed in Minnesota. On the face of it that would seem to perpetuate the injustice, I don't think people will be too upset about Chauvin but the legal system shouldn't really work that way.
(Nb. I suppose he could still be on the hook for 1st degree if he did indeed know the victim and went to the scene with the intent to murder him, perhaps even engineering there would be a scene, just based on what's in the public domain it's hard to envisage premeditation)
Edit - Although here they cite what seem some valid concerns around the 3rd degree murder charge and touch on allowing a felony murder charge being rolled out as 2nd degree murder - https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/06/02/ ... yds-death/
That is an impressive use of legal cock-knockery. I hope they don't do that just to secure a second degree - it's all very well to bend the rules for something you agree with, but you've got to invoke the BNP rule for everything like that.
You'd have said second degree was a reasonable shout on the basis that the man himself warned of being unable to breathe, people around told Chauvin he'd gone limp, fellow officers said they couldn't get a pulse and should they change position, and Chauvin still kept his knee on there for another 3 minutes. Can't prove premeditation, but given he was warned this was killing Floyd and kept going, surely you can say there's intent.
Puja
Agreed. Not enough for pre meditation but enough there to suggest that it wasn’t a total accident either.
That sounds like murder in the 3rd to me, I have doubts it was an intentional killing of Floyd, and I'd have doubts (absent of the huge media coverage prior to any trial in this case) you'd secure a conviction for intentional murder. But if murder in the 3rd doesn't apply maybe 2nd degree via felony murder is what they have, and even if it sounds a bit weird to me that's what the good people of Minnesota have. Just one further point, looking into the website I linked to above (the Daily Signal) it might be known to others but I only came across it searching for what charge might best apply in this case, and to give fair warning it's certainly not a liberal site, which isn't to say that makes them automatically wrong but it gives me further pause
Mikey Brown wrote:Fucking hell. Poor Robert Forbes is all I can say now.
It’s looking horribly like we have a brazen Nazi murdering a man by hitting him with his car, then being protected by the police while laughing and having a smoke at the side of the road?
I just can’t get my head around it. Once again this sounds too ridiculous to be the whole truth.
I’m trying to find something to suggest the version I’m hearing is biased or incorrect, but I’m not finding much.
Those are 14/88 tattoos on his shoulders if that’s not totally clear.
Fucking hell. There's your perfect answer to Donny's twitter thread about "the myth of systemic racism". Black man may have possibly passed a dodgy $20 note - order him out of the car at gunpoint, handcuff him, and restrain him to death. White guy with 14/88 tattoos drives into a BLM protestor - no need for handcuffs, or even an arrest - the guy wasn't on the crosswalk, so no crime's been committed here and no investigation needed.
Puja
Can’t find a definitive video of the incident. Eyewitness accounts differ and the police state they are still investigating. Probably should have handcuffed him at the time though, although arguably he was offering no resistance to the police, but the use of handcuffs seems to be the norm.
Meanwhile Moore has put a post on Facebook (since deleted) stating it was an accident.
Racist bastard most definitely, but I hope there is better evidence available.
Puja wrote:
That is an impressive use of legal cock-knockery. I hope they don't do that just to secure a second degree - it's all very well to bend the rules for something you agree with, but you've got to invoke the BNP rule for everything like that.
You'd have said second degree was a reasonable shout on the basis that the man himself warned of being unable to breathe, people around told Chauvin he'd gone limp, fellow officers said they couldn't get a pulse and should they change position, and Chauvin still kept his knee on there for another 3 minutes. Can't prove premeditation, but given he was warned this was killing Floyd and kept going, surely you can say there's intent.
Puja
Agreed. Not enough for pre meditation but enough there to suggest that it wasn’t a total accident either.
That sounds like murder in the 3rd to me, I have doubts it was an intentional killing of Floyd, and I'd have doubts (absent of the huge media coverage prior to any trial in this case) you'd secure a conviction for intentional murder. But if murder in the 3rd doesn't apply maybe 2nd degree via felony murder is what they have, and even if it sounds a bit weird to me that's what the good people of Minnesota have. Just one further point, looking into the website I linked to above (the Daily Signal) it might be known to others but I only came across it searching for what charge might best apply in this case, and to give fair warning it's certainly not a liberal site, which isn't to say that makes them automatically wrong but it gives me further pause
For reference, the Daily signal is owned outright by a far-right think-tank and were set up to be a news source from the Tea Party. Although I suppose far right is relative nowadays. They're not literal facists, but they are definitely right wing.
I'd probably agree with you on the intention being on the cusp, if it wasn't for the other officer saying he couldn't find a pulse and should they move him only to be denied by Chauvin. That to me takes it from an accident to intent, at least in the moment.
Police in Austin shoot a teenager in the head with rubber bullets, fracturing his skull and causing brain damage. Same police told protesters that, if they wanted him to get medical attention, they had to carry him to the police lines, as no policeman was coming to get him. Then they open-fired on the guys carrying him (including a clearly-marked medic) for approaching them.
It’s weird that if these were brown people in raggedy clothing doing this to eachother (with a different backdrop perhaps) America would be the first country to label them savages, medieval, Neanderthals etc.
That is what it means when people talk about subconscious and institutionalised racism, not that they are making officers hold up a bible and take an oath to be as racist as possible. It’s only the cherry on top that there happen to actually be so many in the system who would take that oath.
Police in Austin shoot a teenager in the head with rubber bullets, fracturing his skull and causing brain damage. Same police told protesters that, if they wanted him to get medical attention, they had to carry him to the police lines, as no policeman was coming to get him. Then they open-fired on the guys carrying him (including a clearly-marked medic) for approaching them.
Fucking evil.
Puja
If this was a war, it would be a war crime.
But I'd be happy for it just to recognised as a crime.
Sandydragon wrote:
Agreed. Not enough for pre meditation but enough there to suggest that it wasn’t a total accident either.
That sounds like murder in the 3rd to me, I have doubts it was an intentional killing of Floyd, and I'd have doubts (absent of the huge media coverage prior to any trial in this case) you'd secure a conviction for intentional murder. But if murder in the 3rd doesn't apply maybe 2nd degree via felony murder is what they have, and even if it sounds a bit weird to me that's what the good people of Minnesota have. Just one further point, looking into the website I linked to above (the Daily Signal) it might be known to others but I only came across it searching for what charge might best apply in this case, and to give fair warning it's certainly not a liberal site, which isn't to say that makes them automatically wrong but it gives me further pause
For reference, the Daily signal is owned outright by a far-right think-tank and were set up to be a news source from the Tea Party. Although I suppose far right is relative nowadays. They're not literal facists, but they are definitely right wing.
I'd probably agree with you on the intention being on the cusp, if it wasn't for the other officer saying he couldn't find a pulse and should they move him only to be denied by Chauvin. That to me takes it from an accident to intent, at least in the moment.
Puja
I didn't know that about denying assistance when a pulse couldn't be located, that's for sure making it a worse incident (in what's already a murder for my money), but where the line is on depraved indifference Vs intent isn't one I can judge, unless I don't like the verdict in time honoured internet fashion
It'll be an interesting one for the prosecutors, do they give the jury the options of 2nd and 3rd degree murder realising the jury might take an out, or do they push just one higher charge and ramp up the pressure daring the jury to find a higher standard hasn't been met knowing it'll mean riots. The judge might be looking to apply as much pressure as they can to have extra options open to the jury
morepork wrote:Still not a single statement regarding social inequality as the cause of the protests from the Federal government.
Not a single statement.
There are many statements on social inequality in the book he held up. Also whilst there's not even a sensible murmur from Trump it's still not like the Senate Republicans are showing any interest in growing a spine either. The number of people failing to even try and reach basic standards of humanity is shocking, though I suppose they're really only there to make tax cuts for the rich, and if you make a gesture towards reconciliation people are only going to ask what are you practically going to do
27 British police officers hurt over the past 2 days. The Police in London and other cities have been very accommodating of peaceful protest and let a lot go. The right to protest about policemen in the US does not give anyone the license to assault policemen in the UK.
Sandydragon wrote:
Agreed. Not enough for pre meditation but enough there to suggest that it wasn’t a total accident either.
That sounds like murder in the 3rd to me, I have doubts it was an intentional killing of Floyd, and I'd have doubts (absent of the huge media coverage prior to any trial in this case) you'd secure a conviction for intentional murder. But if murder in the 3rd doesn't apply maybe 2nd degree via felony murder is what they have, and even if it sounds a bit weird to me that's what the good people of Minnesota have. Just one further point, looking into the website I linked to above (the Daily Signal) it might be known to others but I only came across it searching for what charge might best apply in this case, and to give fair warning it's certainly not a liberal site, which isn't to say that makes them automatically wrong but it gives me further pause
For reference, the Daily signal is owned outright by a far-right think-tank and were set up to be a news source from the Tea Party. Although I suppose far right is relative nowadays. They're not literal facists, but they are definitely right wing.
I'd probably agree with you on the intention being on the cusp, if it wasn't for the other officer saying he couldn't find a pulse and should they move him only to be denied by Chauvin. That to me takes it from an accident to intent, at least in the moment.
Puja
Yes, there was definitely malice there, rather than just an accident. I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest there was prior planning to commit murder, probably not.
27 British police officers hurt over the past 2 days. The Police in London and other cities have been very accommodating of peaceful protest and let a lot go. The right to protest about policemen in the US does not give anyone the license to assault policemen in the UK.
Whilst not saying that there are no dickheads who have just punched police for a laugh, it's worth noting that according to everything which I've seen (including Cressida Dick's own statement) none of the injuries or violent clashes happened before the evening - ie, when the police started unnecessarily kettling people.
That sounds like murder in the 3rd to me, I have doubts it was an intentional killing of Floyd, and I'd have doubts (absent of the huge media coverage prior to any trial in this case) you'd secure a conviction for intentional murder. But if murder in the 3rd doesn't apply maybe 2nd degree via felony murder is what they have, and even if it sounds a bit weird to me that's what the good people of Minnesota have. Just one further point, looking into the website I linked to above (the Daily Signal) it might be known to others but I only came across it searching for what charge might best apply in this case, and to give fair warning it's certainly not a liberal site, which isn't to say that makes them automatically wrong but it gives me further pause
For reference, the Daily signal is owned outright by a far-right think-tank and were set up to be a news source from the Tea Party. Although I suppose far right is relative nowadays. They're not literal facists, but they are definitely right wing.
I'd probably agree with you on the intention being on the cusp, if it wasn't for the other officer saying he couldn't find a pulse and should they move him only to be denied by Chauvin. That to me takes it from an accident to intent, at least in the moment.
Puja
Yes, there was definitely malice there, rather than just an accident. I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest there was prior planning to commit murder, probably not.
27 British police officers hurt over the past 2 days. The Police in London and other cities have been very accommodating of peaceful protest and let a lot go. The right to protest about policemen in the US does not give anyone the license to assault policemen in the UK.
Whilst not saying that there are no dickheads who have just punched police for a laugh, it's worth noting that according to everything which I've seen (including Cressida Dick's own statement) none of the injuries or violent clashes happened before the evening - ie, when the police started unnecessarily kettling people.
Puja
Was that before or after the criminal damage? The vast majority of protestors were peaceful, but there are the usual few (most turn up to any demonstration) who cause problems. The British police have been very restrained.
Fuck Colston, and fuck the people who thought putting a statue of that shitcunt up would be a good idea to begin with. Philanthropy derived from crimes against humanity has no worth, and is as hollow as the statue that commemorates it.
I'm a god
How can you kill a god?
Shame on you, sweet Nerevar
