England side for the Barbarians game

[Scrumhead]

Now we know the outcome of the semi-finals, I thought it might be worth having a think about who should feature against the Barbarians.

I’d go for:

1. B. Obano
2. T. Dunn
3. W. Stuart
4. D. Ribbans
5. E. Stooke
6. M. Wilson (captain)
7. B. Earl
8. A. Dombrandt
9. B. Spencer
10. M. Smith
11. R. McConnochie
12. C. Redpath
13. J. Marchant
14. O. Thorley
15. M. Malins

16. J. Singleton 17. L. Boyce 18. J. Heyes 19. A. Moon 20. T. Hill 21. A. Mitchell 22. O. Lawrence 23. J. Cokanasiga

Not much point in playing guys we already know lots about. Wilson would be an ideal leader for this side IMO.

*Edited to include Worcester players

[Puja]

Now we know the outcome of the semi-finals, I thought it might be worth having a think about who should feature against the Barbarians.

I’d go for:

1. B. Obano
2. T. Dunn
3. W. Stuart
4. D. Ribbans
5. E. Stooke
6. M. Wilson (captain)
7. B. Earl
8. A. Dombrandt
9. B. Spencer
10. M. Smith
11. R. McConnochie
12. C. Redpath
13. J. Marchant
14. O. Thorley
15. M. Malins

16. J. Singleton 17. L. Boyce 18. J. Heyes 19. A. Moon 20. J. Clement 21. A. Mitchell 22. F. Dingwall 23. J. Cokanasiga

Not much point in playing guys we already know lots about. Wilson would be an ideal leader for this side IMO.

I'd be generally in agreement with that, although I don't see the value in Jack Singleton on the bench. I'd prefer to start Mitchell and maybe get Harry Randall involved to ward off the attentions of Wales, but otherwise, I think you've got that spot on.

I reckon Uncle Eddie will pick his first XV minus Exeter and Wasps players though.

Puja


ETA. On second thoughts, I'd say Cokanasiga *must* start this game. If we want to use him at all this autumn/winter, he needs minutes in his legs and some semblance of match-fitness and I'd say getting 80 minutes into him would be the most important thing that could come out of this game.

[Oakboy]

Is Earl living up to expectation in recent games?

[Scrumhead]

Now we know the outcome of the semi-finals, I thought it might be worth having a think about who should feature against the Barbarians.

I’d go for:

1. B. Obano
2. T. Dunn
3. W. Stuart
4. D. Ribbans
5. E. Stooke
6. M. Wilson (captain)
7. B. Earl
8. A. Dombrandt
9. B. Spencer
10. M. Smith
11. R. McConnochie
12. C. Redpath
13. J. Marchant
14. O. Thorley
15. M. Malins

16. J. Singleton 17. L. Boyce 18. J. Heyes 19. A. Moon 20. J. Clement 21. A. Mitchell 22. F. Dingwall 23. J. Cokanasiga

Not much point in playing guys we already know lots about. Wilson would be an ideal leader for this side IMO.

I'd be generally in agreement with that, although I don't see the value in Jack Singleton on the bench. I'd prefer to start Mitchell and maybe get Harry Randall involved to ward off the attentions of Wales, but otherwise, I think you've got that spot on.

I reckon Uncle Eddie will pick his first XV minus Exeter and Wasps players though.

Puja


ETA. On second thoughts, I'd say Cokanasiga *must* start this game. If we want to use him at all this autumn/winter, he needs minutes in his legs and some semblance of match-fitness and I'd say getting 80 minutes into him would be the most important thing that could come out of this game.

I’m not so sure ... he looked finished after about 50mins today. I think he’d be more value off the bench right now.

[Scrumhead]

Is Earl living up to expectation in recent games?

Yes. Of course he has? He was a bit anonymous today, but I think you could say the same for a good chunk of the Bristol side. Other than that, I’d say he’s been the best of the rest after Willis who has been in a category of his own.

[Puja]

ETA. On second thoughts, I'd say Cokanasiga *must* start this game. If we want to use him at all this autumn/winter, he needs minutes in his legs and some semblance of match-fitness and I'd say getting 80 minutes into him would be the most important thing that could come out of this game.

I’m not so sure ... he looked finished after about 50mins today. I think he’d be more value off the bench right now.

Probably in terms of the Barbarians game, but who really cares if he's below par for a Barbarians friendly? If it gets him into decent enough nick to be in the XXIII for Italy, then it's worth it.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - that’s fair. Given limitations on travel and quarantine, I imagine options for the Barbarians will be limited. I also read elsewhere that players who have played in the Premiership this season and will be playing next season can’t be selected because for the Barbarians of the tight turnaround. May or may not be true.

If it is true, I could imagine Barritt and Wigglesworth being in the squad as well as Robshaw - old England vs. new England if you will.

I also agree re. Singleton, but I went with players included in the training squad.

I forgot about the Worcester players so I’d swap in Ted Hill for Clement and Lawrence for Dingwall.

[Beasties]

I've really warmed to Malins in the last few games. He's playing like Alex Goode imagines he plays in his head. He's got a lot of pace, a gliding quality in his running and a bag of tricks as well. All depends on Eddie though, will it be wall to wall Daly or might he experiment with the unknown quantity that is Watson? We do look well stocked at wing these days.

[Scrumhead]

Malins has always had huge potential but he’s been unlucky with injuries and, like others before him, has probably been too loyal to Saracens. The loan move is a golden opportunity for him to show what he can do with regular game time.

As you say, he’s like Goode with more pace and flair. I think he’s what Eddie wanted from Daly, but is more naturally suited to that role. He has a similar style to Furbank too, but is significantly better.

[fivepointer]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

[Stom]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

I'd have him at 12 to help out Smith, I think that could work really nicely. Are the Bath and Briz players going to be available, though?

[Mikey Brown]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

Yeah this makes total sense. They need as much opportunity to reestablish themselves in the side before the serious games happen.

[Oakboy]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

That is going to be a constant theme for a year at least. I've already said I would not pick any Championship-based players but I accept that Jones will. It will really piss me off if he gives them game time because they are not match-sharp in games where the shirts should be going to younger players needing development.

[Blandy]

While that might apply to the 2021 6N games, that's not really applicable to this set of games is it? the Saracen's players have played as recently as any one outside of Exeter/Wasps/Bristol/Bath

[ExAviator]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

That is going to be a constant theme for a year at least. I've already said I would not pick any Championship-based players but I accept that Jones will. It will really piss me off if he gives them game time because they are not match-sharp in games where the shirts should be going to younger players needing development.

If the players selected for the England team do not play well then surely they'll be dropped even if they are Saracens. It is accepted many, but not all, contributors to this Forum consider Owen Farrell is an exception to this rule!

However, it is just possible these Saracen players could make an even more significant contribution to English rugby as they will be less fatigued than those selected from Premiership teams - as well as not carrying long term injuries.

[Oakboy]

I'm sure Farrell will be captain.
Hasnt played in a while and needs a run out before the Italy game. Might see one or two other Saracens players involved too.

That is going to be a constant theme for a year at least. I've already said I would not pick any Championship-based players but I accept that Jones will. It will really piss me off if he gives them game time because they are not match-sharp in games where the shirts should be going to younger players needing development.

If the players selected for the England team do not play well then surely they'll be dropped even if they are Saracens. It is accepted many, but not all, contributors to this Forum consider Owen Farrell is an exception to this rule!

However, it is just possible these Saracen players could make an even more significant contribution to English rugby as they will be less fatigued than those selected from Premiership teams - as well as not carrying long term injuries.

Yes, Banquo and others have made that point. Jones is a stubborn individual and I can imagine him saying 'Player X was magnificent for England the last time he played and that's all that counts'. One snag for me is that if Saracens have zero club form to define their playing standard where does that leave others who are playing in the cut-throat minefield of regular premiership? Is club form irrelevant for a whole year (or two if covid restrictions curtail promotion from the championship) for everyone or just Saracens? Should good or bad form just disappear from consideration?

It strikes me that, rather than sharing their club's punishment, Saracens players are gaining an advantage over their rivals for international shirts. That might sit right with some but it definitely does not with me.

[Stom]

That is going to be a constant theme for a year at least. I've already said I would not pick any Championship-based players but I accept that Jones will. It will really piss me off if he gives them game time because they are not match-sharp in games where the shirts should be going to younger players needing development.

If the players selected for the England team do not play well then surely they'll be dropped even if they are Saracens. It is accepted many, but not all, contributors to this Forum consider Owen Farrell is an exception to this rule!

However, it is just possible these Saracen players could make an even more significant contribution to English rugby as they will be less fatigued than those selected from Premiership teams - as well as not carrying long term injuries.

Yes, Banquo and others have made that point. Jones is a stubborn individual and I can imagine him saying 'Player X was magnificent for England the last time he played and that's all that counts'. One snag for me is that if Saracens have zero club form to define their playing standard where does that leave others who are playing in the cut-throat minefield of regular premiership? Is club form irrelevant for a whole year (or two if covid restrictions curtail promotion from the championship) for everyone or just Saracens? Should good or bad form just disappear from consideration?

It strikes me that, rather than sharing their club's punishment, Saracens players are gaining an advantage over their rivals for international shirts. That might sit right with some but it definitely does not with me.

You're forgetting about an important factor here: this is an individual thing. It's all well and good saying all players should be treated equal, but a player who has been one of England's best (or their captain) and has a backlog of good performances (or petulant performances hyped into great ones) is going to get into the squad anyway. They can show their form on the training paddock.

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I was about to post a very similar argument.

No team can afford to ignore 6 players of that quality. If the Championship season doesn’t happen/or doesn’t happen until next year, I suspect other measures will be put in place for them.

I can kind of imagine a situation similar to what Japan had with the Sunwolves prior to the RWC with the players from the national team effectively put on a different training plan. Obviously it’s a very different scenario when Nigel Wray is paying their wages but I could still see some kind of ‘exceptional circumstances’ deal being figured out.

[TheNomad]

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

Yeah. You can make an argument (perhaps not a strong one in all instances) for most, if not all of those players having a shout at a world XV

[Peej]

World XV or not (and I reckon two of that list are), they are all implicated in cheating their way to success, and so I think should be consigned to a year in the wilderness.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Though I'm sure them playing for England was fine when we were in a world cup final..........

[Peej]

Not really, to be honest. But once everything became public after the final, then I think that a line should be drawn somewhere. What's the difference between them in the Championship and guys in France? How can there be special circumstances for a punishment for guys cheating to get more money, yet if someone takes a legit pay check abroad they are ruled out?

Just my unpopular opinion.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Two different things. Or rather three. The playing abroad nonsense, which is largely nonsense IMO (in terms of them ineligible), playing in the champ (occasionally) and then a belief that the players should be punished.

I don't see the problem with playing playing in other leagues. Player release is always mooted, but that isn't insurmountable. I don't see why we would limit players ability to play abroad and experience different leagues.

Playing in the Champ, frankly who cares. If there is an issue in the above about their release then that isn't a problem in Champ rugby.

The players aren't punished. Regardless of people's opinions. The club is punished, not the players. Why should the players be punished when it is the club that has broken the rules?

[Puja]

Right, mod announcement:

We are not having another thread devolve into whether the Saracens players have cheated or been complicit in fraud. It is not possible to tell whether the Saracens players were wicked villains cackling over their ill-gotten gains, or just ordinary people who just accepted a paycheque, assumed their employer knew what they were doing, and didn't interfere with what they were told was above board. You are allowed to have your own opinions on that, but you are not allowed to have that conversation here because it is a) inherently unprovable one way or the other, and b) going to end up with someone saying something that could get Hammy sued and the board shut down.

No more please.

Mod

[Mikey Brown]

If the players selected for the England team do not play well then surely they'll be dropped even if they are Saracens. It is accepted many, but not all, contributors to this Forum consider Owen Farrell is an exception to this rule!

However, it is just possible these Saracen players could make an even more significant contribution to English rugby as they will be less fatigued than those selected from Premiership teams - as well as not carrying long term injuries.

Yes, Banquo and others have made that point. Jones is a stubborn individual and I can imagine him saying 'Player X was magnificent for England the last time he played and that's all that counts'. One snag for me is that if Saracens have zero club form to define their playing standard where does that leave others who are playing in the cut-throat minefield of regular premiership? Is club form irrelevant for a whole year (or two if covid restrictions curtail promotion from the championship) for everyone or just Saracens? Should good or bad form just disappear from consideration?

It strikes me that, rather than sharing their club's punishment, Saracens players are gaining an advantage over their rivals for international shirts. That might sit right with some but it definitely does not with me.

You're forgetting about an important factor here: this is an individual thing. It's all well and good saying all players should be treated equal, but a player who has been one of England's best (or their captain) and has a backlog of good performances (or petulant performances hyped into great ones) is going to get into the squad anyway. They can show their form on the training paddock.

And the Sarries in contention are:

Mako - probably the world's best LHP
George - one of the best hookers in the world
Itoje - one of the best locks in the world
Billy - a player unlike any other we have
Farrell - teacher's pet
Daly - one of our best all round rugby players

We're not talking about Dunn, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam and McConnochie here, we're talking about some of the best players on offer for us (and our captain).

You treat it on a situation by situation basis, don't treat all players as the same.

Yes but Stuart, Dunn, Hill, Willis, Simmonds, McConnochie don't get to go up against them 1 and 1 in a Premiership game and say to Eddie "look, I'm at least as good as this guy". It's just a weird dynamic.

It does sort of make you wonder how far the Saracens guys will be allowed to play under their normal level in the Championship. Sarries seem pretty great at motivating their players, but it might be funny if we start seeing clips surface of Owen Farrell getting gassed by a 43 year old Hugo Ellis every week.