Homophobia

[Zhivago]

Hard to get away from this conclusion

1) young people are left in a state of ‘developmental limbo’ without secondary sexual characteristics that might consolidate gender identity;
2) use is likely to threaten the maturation of the adolescent mind,
3) puberty blockers are being used in the context of profound scientific ignorance.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research, and treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms and even death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2 ... ce-review/

[Puja]

Allowing puberty to happen naturally isn't an irreversible decision, sex change operations are an option later on. And we now add a new variable into younger children thought processes where they are hugely confused about life as a whole and add more stress to the family as well?

The NHS has recently changed its position from suggesting that puberty blockers are fully reversible with no long term effects to one that recognises that there may be long term effects which they don't fully understand yet. I accept thats probably as a result of the Tavistock Clinic being sued, but adding additional chemicals to a child's body when they are still developing is not something that should be done lightly. Id rather better counselling for children who believe they are the wrong gender with medical intervention possible once they have fully developed and understand themselves better.

I don't know whether you fully appreciate what a "sex change operation later on" involves. If we're talking about a trans girl, puberty causes a widening of the jaw and masculine facial changes, growing a beard, height changes, hip changes, shoulder changes, and voice changes. Of those, only two of them can be changed after they have happened - laser treatment for the beard (rarely available on the NHS and expensive privately) and the facial structure which can be altered through massive plastic surgery (almost never available on the NHS and ridiculously expensive, as well as dangerous and painful like any operation). Changes to the body's soft-tissue and musculature will come through hormones, but broad shoulders, narrow hips, deep voice, and being 6ft cannot be changed once they're done. For a trans boy it's the same in reverse, with the exception that a female voice can be lowered through hormones and a beard can be grown (although the stigma that comes from being a 5ft0 bloke is more than a 6ft0 woman gets, and it's far easier to add padding to look more curvy than it is to hide wide hips, so swings and roundabouts). The waiting list for top surgery (removal of breasts) is 3 years to even have a consultation on the NHS and it's £12k privately. It is absolutely an irreversible decision and I would bet if you asked any trans person if they wished they could have transitioned before puberty/taken puberty blockers until they could transition, you'd get a 100% yes.

I would also take issue with the idea that we're "introducing a new variable". Trans people have always existed - the change is that we're moving towards an environment where we don't just deny their existence and insist to teenagers that we know better than them about their mind and body, so more of them are coming out/not repressing. With that, there will inevitably be cis kids who are confused, who are swept along by other people, who don't know what's going on and cling to a label in the hope that that's them - teenagers, WYGD? However, feckless as teenagers are as a group, I knew I was a boy by the age of 16. I'm pretty sure everyone here also knew what gender they were at that point. Seems weird to assume that today's generation of teenagers lack the same self-awareness of their own body to the extent that they cannot even be trusted to have time to think about it.

On the medical issues, I will plead some ignorance - I know that the drugs have been widely used for decades for other medical needs (including stopping early puberty in children where it comes on at age 8 or something stupid) and there have been no noted long-term effects, but I am not a doctor nor a specialist. I suspect that the NHS are hedging their bets, as you say.

Right now the argument seems to be, "We haven't got any evidence that puberty blockers cause any negative effects, but we can't be 100% certain that there might not possibly be something in the future that we're not aware of yet, so it seems better to deny treatment to trans kids, even though there's lots of evidence that doing so increases suicide and self-harm rates massively." Yes, the experience of that one cis kid who went through puberty blockers and then fully transitioned when they were older and then realised that they were wrong is shitty and I really feel for them ending up stuck in the wrong body and having to have massive surgery to fix it. But that's exactly what denying puberty blockers is sentencing thousands of trans kids to and I don't get how we can care about one kid ending up in the wrong adult body and not the thousands of others.

Puja

Strawman. I haven't suggested that trans people are a new thing. And Im not suggesting that we ask them to keep quiet and remain hidden. My issue is with medical treatment for kids. I don't believe they are in a position to make those decisions at that stage in their lives and we should be looking to avoid medical interventions until they are adults.

Apologies, didn't mean to put words into your mouth - I wasn't implying that you thought they should keep hidden. Let me try again, and please do accept that I'm arguing in good faith here - I'm genuinely not trying to be a dick about this (rare, for the internet, I know).

As I understand it, you're saying that you don't think teenage kids aren't in a position to make a final, irrevocable decision on what gender body they're going to live their adult life in. Which is a valid, reasonable position to take and I completely get you.

What I'm saying is that doing nothing *is* making a final, irrevocable decision. Not intervening isn't the neutral option where we're not making the kid make a decision at that stage in their life, it's choosing one for them. To me, puberty blockers are the neutral position - if the kid thinks they're trans, then don't make them decide now.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

I don't know whether you fully appreciate what a "sex change operation later on" involves. If we're talking about a trans girl, puberty causes a widening of the jaw and masculine facial changes, growing a beard, height changes, hip changes, shoulder changes, and voice changes. Of those, only two of them can be changed after they have happened - laser treatment for the beard (rarely available on the NHS and expensive privately) and the facial structure which can be altered through massive plastic surgery (almost never available on the NHS and ridiculously expensive, as well as dangerous and painful like any operation). Changes to the body's soft-tissue and musculature will come through hormones, but broad shoulders, narrow hips, deep voice, and being 6ft cannot be changed once they're done. For a trans boy it's the same in reverse, with the exception that a female voice can be lowered through hormones and a beard can be grown (although the stigma that comes from being a 5ft0 bloke is more than a 6ft0 woman gets, and it's far easier to add padding to look more curvy than it is to hide wide hips, so swings and roundabouts). The waiting list for top surgery (removal of breasts) is 3 years to even have a consultation on the NHS and it's £12k privately. It is absolutely an irreversible decision and I would bet if you asked any trans person if they wished they could have transitioned before puberty/taken puberty blockers until they could transition, you'd get a 100% yes.

I would also take issue with the idea that we're "introducing a new variable". Trans people have always existed - the change is that we're moving towards an environment where we don't just deny their existence and insist to teenagers that we know better than them about their mind and body, so more of them are coming out/not repressing. With that, there will inevitably be cis kids who are confused, who are swept along by other people, who don't know what's going on and cling to a label in the hope that that's them - teenagers, WYGD? However, feckless as teenagers are as a group, I knew I was a boy by the age of 16. I'm pretty sure everyone here also knew what gender they were at that point. Seems weird to assume that today's generation of teenagers lack the same self-awareness of their own body to the extent that they cannot even be trusted to have time to think about it.

On the medical issues, I will plead some ignorance - I know that the drugs have been widely used for decades for other medical needs (including stopping early puberty in children where it comes on at age 8 or something stupid) and there have been no noted long-term effects, but I am not a doctor nor a specialist. I suspect that the NHS are hedging their bets, as you say.

Right now the argument seems to be, "We haven't got any evidence that puberty blockers cause any negative effects, but we can't be 100% certain that there might not possibly be something in the future that we're not aware of yet, so it seems better to deny treatment to trans kids, even though there's lots of evidence that doing so increases suicide and self-harm rates massively." Yes, the experience of that one cis kid who went through puberty blockers and then fully transitioned when they were older and then realised that they were wrong is shitty and I really feel for them ending up stuck in the wrong body and having to have massive surgery to fix it. But that's exactly what denying puberty blockers is sentencing thousands of trans kids to and I don't get how we can care about one kid ending up in the wrong adult body and not the thousands of others.

Puja

Strawman. I haven't suggested that trans people are a new thing. And Im not suggesting that we ask them to keep quiet and remain hidden. My issue is with medical treatment for kids. I don't believe they are in a position to make those decisions at that stage in their lives and we should be looking to avoid medical interventions until they are adults.

Apologies, didn't mean to put words into your mouth - I wasn't implying that you thought they should keep hidden. Let me try again, and please do accept that I'm arguing in good faith here - I'm genuinely not trying to be a dick about this (rare, for the internet, I know).

As I understand it, you're saying that you don't think teenage kids aren't in a position to make a final, irrevocable decision on what gender body they're going to live their adult life in. Which is a valid, reasonable position to take and I completely get you.

What I'm saying is that doing nothing *is* making a final, irrevocable decision. Not intervening isn't the neutral option where we're not making the kid make a decision at that stage in their life, it's choosing one for them. To me, puberty blockers are the neutral position - if the kid thinks they're trans, then don't make them decide now.

Puja

Sounds like we are just repeating ourselves. Fair enough, lets agree to disagree.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Lots of people are suffering, that don't mean there's always funding and an idea on how to proceed, nor perhaps even should it as a blanket rule.

Also, left handed people aren't normal. I do though like the idea the political left are the virtuous kind people in all this and the political right are the persecutors

I assume this is a joke, although it's difficult to tell.

[Zhivago]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

[Digby]

Lots of people are suffering, that don't mean there's always funding and an idea on how to proceed, nor perhaps even should it as a blanket rule.

Also, left handed people aren't normal. I do though like the idea the political left are the virtuous kind people in all this and the political right are the persecutors

I assume this is a joke, although it's difficult to tell.

No no, freaks all and gassing would be too good for them. Although I should note I probably would be naturally left handed, and merely my parents decided it'd be more convenient for me to be right handed given the world is set up for right handed folk. Once upon a time I was cross because who cares about convenience when it might have edged a few runs off my batting average, but now one increasingly sees people teach themselves to use the other hand, whether Ronnie in the snooker or Nadal in tennis, it occurs I could have taught myself to be left handed again and clearly I was just too thoughtless and/or lazy.

[Son of Mathonwy]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Lots of people are suffering, that don't mean there's always funding and an idea on how to proceed, nor perhaps even should it as a blanket rule.

Also, left handed people aren't normal. I do though like the idea the political left are the virtuous kind people in all this and the political right are the persecutors

I assume this is a joke, although it's difficult to tell.

No no, freaks all and gassing would be too good for them. Although I should note I probably would be naturally left handed, and merely my parents decided it'd be more convenient for me to be right handed given the world is set up for right handed folk. Once upon a time I was cross because who cares about convenience when it might have edged a few runs off my batting average, but now one increasingly sees people teach themselves to use the other hand, whether Ronnie in the snooker or Nadal in tennis, it occurs I could have taught myself to be left handed again and clearly I was just too thoughtless and/or lazy.

Once they isolate the gene for it there'll be no more hiding for you and your deviant kind.

[Puja]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Puja

[Digby]

Ignoring the backlash from offended social justice warriors, even those going out of their way to find something to be offended by, is something of an issue too.

[Zhivago]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

It's clearly cultural. Maybe I've been living in Netherlands too long, but I prefer talking directly more and more these days.

[Son of Mathonwy]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

It's clearly cultural. Maybe I've been living in Netherlands too long, but I prefer talking directly more and more these days.

Directness is fine, if the term used is precise (eg doesn't have too many alternative meanings). I try to use terms that also don't put people's backs up. My guess is that gay people would rather be called atypical than abnormal, so that's probably a better term to use.

[Son of Mathonwy]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Puja

I think I was a bit late to the woke party. I heard of anti-woke before I noticed woke.

So if someone mentions woke to me I usually ask for a definition, or what they mean by that term. Otherwise it's just an excuse to stop thinking and disregard/hate (or respect, depending on your viewpoint).

[Zhivago]

doe even normaal jonge

If it really makes a difference to you we can just substitute in typical for normal.

Left handedness is atypical, as is homosexuality. Happy now? Or do you still want to play this political correctness game?

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Puja

Policing language is always going to be contentious, because sometimes it gets dangerously close to policing thoughts.

Also, when it is taken to extremes it undermines even the reasonable attempts. For example, I find this ridiculous:

Sainsbury’s has now withdrawn from its stock a Matilda-themed mug that bears the quotation ‘a brilliant idea hit her’ following complaints that it promotes violence against women.

I agree that the 'woke' label raises red flags. I also consider that to be a childish development of our political discourse, along with the rest of the right's favourite terms, 'snowflake' etc.

Cancel culture is also ridiculous most of the time, but it depends on the circumstance. For example the recent attempt to 'cancel' Billy Eilish for some stupid stuff she said when she was 13 is ridiculous. In contrast, when JK Rowling gets political, then I think it becomes fair game to judge her and boycott if you oppose her views.

[Zhivago]

So, 3 euro matches in Budapest, 3 investigations into Racism and homophobia. And then today, state sponsored homophobia to the fore again as police confiscated Dutch rainbow flags.

Truly appalling.

Genuine question now for you Stom - how have you found integrating? Is the culture so removed from British that you found it impossible, or have you managed to find a half-way house?

I'm obviously not referring to homophobia here, but in general about living in Hungary.

[Stom]

So, 3 euro matches in Budapest, 3 investigations into Racism and homophobia. And then today, state sponsored homophobia to the fore again as police confiscated Dutch rainbow flags.

Truly appalling.

Genuine question now for you Stom - how have you found integrating? Is the culture so removed from British that you found it impossible, or have you managed to find a half-way house?

I'm obviously not referring to homophobia here, but in general about living in Hungary.

I’ve not integrated, that’s how.

I live in a bubble. My kids go to Waldorf/Steiner, so I’m usually surrounded by liberals, creatives and libertarians. While I try to avoid the latter, or avoid shop with them, they really do show some very nasty traits.

This country truly is extraordinarily sexist. And that rolls over into homophobia and transphobia. Racism isn’t such a big problem among the educated crowd, except against the Roma.

The government is obviously anti Semitic and Islamaphobic.

[Zhivago]

So, 3 euro matches in Budapest, 3 investigations into Racism and homophobia. And then today, state sponsored homophobia to the fore again as police confiscated Dutch rainbow flags.

Truly appalling.

Genuine question now for you Stom - how have you found integrating? Is the culture so removed from British that you found it impossible, or have you managed to find a half-way house?

I'm obviously not referring to homophobia here, but in general about living in Hungary.

I’ve not integrated, that’s how.

I live in a bubble. My kids go to Waldorf/Steiner, so I’m usually surrounded by liberals, creatives and libertarians. While I try to avoid the latter, or avoid shop with them, they really do show some very nasty traits.

This country truly is extraordinarily sexist. And that rolls over into homophobia and transphobia. Racism isn’t such a big problem among the educated crowd, except against the Roma.

The government is obviously anti Semitic and Islamaphobic.

Attitudes formed over many years are hard to change. I would probably find it hard to integrate if I were to move to Ukraine, luckily we found a 'neutral' country to live in. But just today I read news that in Ukraine they had a military march with women soldiers wearing high heels. It's completely asbsurd. I do think attitudes are changing though, but it takes time.

[Which Tyler]

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Don't forget "Social Justice Warrior" - because fighting for social justice is a bad thing...

[Zhivago]

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Don't forget "Social Justice Warrior" - because fighting for social justice is a bad thing...

While we're at it, can we get rid of all war metaphors.

[Stom]

Genuine question now for you Stom - how have you found integrating? Is the culture so removed from British that you found it impossible, or have you managed to find a half-way house?

I'm obviously not referring to homophobia here, but in general about living in Hungary.

I’ve not integrated, that’s how.

I live in a bubble. My kids go to Waldorf/Steiner, so I’m usually surrounded by liberals, creatives and libertarians. While I try to avoid the latter, or avoid shop with them, they really do show some very nasty traits.

This country truly is extraordinarily sexist. And that rolls over into homophobia and transphobia. Racism isn’t such a big problem among the educated crowd, except against the Roma.

The government is obviously anti Semitic and Islamaphobic.

Attitudes formed over many years are hard to change. I would probably find it hard to integrate if I were to move to Ukraine, luckily we found a 'neutral' country to live in. But just today I read news that in Ukraine they had a military march with women soldiers wearing high heels. It's completely asbsurd. I do think attitudes are changing though, but it takes time.

They're not. Scientifically.

They're only thoughts. All you need to do is change those thoughts...Sure, it's not "easy", but it's most definitely worth doing. I know I've changed my thoughts a lot over the past decade. Hell, I've changed a lot of thoughts over the past 2 years. Continuing the myth that "Deep seated attitudes are hard to change" simply plays into the racists, homophobes and bigots.

You're saying: "It's fine to be a cwnt, because your grandfather was a cwnt, so it's built into your psyche." No, no it's not. Change the thought.

Gay people have as much right to every single part of society as we do. They're humans just like us, the only difference is that they like, lust and love members of the same sex. And then, why the hell shouldn't there be people who consider themselves different. Bi, asexual, and so on (though I'll be honest, I still don't get what pansexual means. Isn't it just "I'm bisexual, but would rather invent a new term for myself"?

OK, wait, this just confused the hell out of me... https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... definition

I'd been thinking for years that sex = man, woman, intersex. Gender = what you identify with. So biSEXual means you're attracted to men and women (and intersex). Not you're attracted to multiple genders, as there could potentially be unlimited genders. One is scientific, the other is social.

Gah.

Isn't this just another case of society being an arse to a group of people over many years and that group is trying to find their new identity now that they're starting to get more freedoms (in some countries).

Back to the question at the core...

Your thoughts are your attitudes. If you believe that they are difficult to change, you're not going to change them and you'll remain bigoted. If you want to be more accepting of people who are not like you, then change your thoughts around them.

It's that simple. It might not be easy, but who cares?! LIFE is not easy for the people you are too lazy to change your attitude toward.

Yes, lazy, that's what you're being if you can't treat a HUMAN BEING with simple humanity.

[Puja]

It's not political correctness. It's avoiding a needless insult. This helps when trying to find common ground.

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Puja

I think I was a bit late to the woke party. I heard of anti-woke before I noticed woke.

So if someone mentions woke to me I usually ask for a definition, or what they mean by that term. Otherwise it's just an excuse to stop thinking and disregard/hate (or respect, depending on your viewpoint).

Woke was again originally a jokey term used by leftists to mock people who were trying too hard, before being declared by dickheads as being an actual ideology that needed to be fought against.

If you think about, no-one ever claims "politically correct" or "woke" as an identity (well, sometimes as a joke) - they've never been groupings that people want to be a part of, they're just things which are defined by angry wankers claiming they're against all those people who are for it.

Puja

[Stom]

I love the phrase "political correctness." Originally comes from a snide comment from one leftist to another about overly trying to be on board with doctrine, and then taken on by the right to define a terrible problem that needed immediate battling and creating an enemy doctrine that didn't actually exist, replete with fictional "Baa Baa Green Sheep" anecdotes for colour. Now it just appears to mean, "making a minimum effort to be considerate to other people," which is... still a terrible problem to be fought against according to some?

My main enjoyment of it is as an effective shorthand for deciding if someone's worth paying attention to. Complaining about "woke" or "cancel culture" are rapidly joining it as conversational red flags as well.

Puja

I think I was a bit late to the woke party. I heard of anti-woke before I noticed woke.

So if someone mentions woke to me I usually ask for a definition, or what they mean by that term. Otherwise it's just an excuse to stop thinking and disregard/hate (or respect, depending on your viewpoint).

Woke was again originally a jokey term used by leftists to mock people who were trying too hard, before being declared by dickheads as being an actual ideology that needed to be fought against.

If you think about, no-one ever claims "politically correct" or "woke" as an identity (well, sometimes as a joke) - they've never been groupings that people want to be a part of, they're just things which are defined by angry wankers claiming they're against all those people who are for it.

Puja

Except by the guardian who are pretty much a parody of themselves these days anyway

[Which Tyler]

Erm.
I'm happy to identify as a woke SJW.
Although that's largely a reaction to those terms being used as a perjorative - I didn't know either were actually a thing before they were used as perjorative.

[Stom]

Erm.
I'm happy to identify as a woke SJW.
Although that's largely a reaction to those terms being used as a perjorative - I didn't know either were actually a thing before they were used as perjorative.

I just call myself a humanist. I believe humans should be treated like… humans.

And all policies should be made with the aim of treating humans better.

And that’s it.

And I don’t care if someone is white, black, pink, people, orange, yellow, green or blue. I don’t care if they’re gray, straight, bi, asexual, transsexual, or anything else.

And anyone who disagrees me might as well be Hitler.




( and is it bad that I feel the need to put the wink emoji at the end of the obvious joke? Have things got that bad?)

[Which Tyler]

I just call myself a humanist. I believe humans should be treated like… humans.

And all policies should be made with the aim of treating humans better.

I'm far too much of a misanthropist for that. Humanity is an absolute scourge on this planet, and I'd happily see the population reduce to circa 500million.
It's "just" that there should be no favouritism/privilege between individuals of that population