Australia vs England - First Test

[FKAS]

Shows the attacking patterns quite nicely. Working the wingers hard to make sure they're constantly options, expecting them to clear out when it's their pod being used etc. All doing all jobs. The kick at the end I thought was a bad choice, since both wingers were involved in a ruck just one phase earlier, but I'd completely forgotten about Steward.

If it's all gone to pot reset with a long high kick for Steward to contest. Even if he doesn't win it, he'll make the tackle or contest it enough for it to be a mess.

The attacking structure looked ok there. Couple of poor decisions made not getting the ball out wide when the work had been done to create space. Tweak that a little this week and in that passage of play there could have been two significant breaks. Does emphasise the need for better clear outs at the ruck though as it bogged down a couple of times there with Aus taking all the pace out of our attack.

[Oakboy]

Deep into hypothetical theory, I wonder what would happen if the coaching crew from the Barbarians could just pick the best England XXIII and have a week to prepare.

[Banquo]

Shows the attacking patterns quite nicely. Working the wingers hard to make sure they're constantly options, expecting them to clear out when it's their pod being used etc. All doing all jobs. The kick at the end I thought was a bad choice, since both wingers were involved in a ruck just one phase earlier, but I'd completely forgotten about Steward.

If it's all gone to pot reset with a long high kick for Steward to contest. Even if he doesn't win it, he'll make the tackle or contest it enough for it to be a mess.

The attacking structure looked ok there. Couple of poor decisions made not getting the ball out wide when the work had been done to create space. Tweak that a little this week and in that passage of play there could have been two significant breaks. Does emphasise the need for better clear outs at the ruck though as it bogged down a couple of times there with Aus taking all the pace out of our attack.

as before, pretty well/pre planned structures,in fact integrated moves taking you through phases....then a preplanned reset if it goes wrong. Its a bit like how the Brumbies played under jones in terms of planning a number of phases ahead. The successful parts were getting forwards over the tackle line which intrinsically should lead to quicker ruck ball all things being equal- but there you start to see some of the issues; the set up has outside backs resourcing rucks, and we are possibly committing too many, so that means you are then limiting your options should opportunities arise/or the wrong guy on the end of the line (Itoje once from memory), and also the ball is sometimes so quick that the resourcing breaks down (as before looking to put a few men in there) and that phase gets disrupted - your point. So that's point 1- this system requires resourcing, accuracy and great decision making at speed- and that's quite step change for our skill sets imo. Another issue is that it looks like we run the pattern in quite a fixed way in terms of actions, so other opportunities are being missed.
So lots of good to work on- but it is hard work, you have to be accurate, you have to make good decisions on the fly, and you have to work out how you bring the whole attack flatter whilst ensuring your back three, or best finishers are on the receiving end of opportunities. Most of all its how you capitalise on the opportunity created, rather than run another one of the sequence. (Later in the game, we stopped resourcing for whatever reason and the ruck became a mare)
(caveat- this is not based on any reruns, just what I was seeing in real time)

[Spiffy]

I’m as frustrated as anyone, but I find that there’s such a heavy skew towards relentless negativity that makes me want to go in the other direction.

For every positive post, there are five or more negative ones.

I don’t feel that is an accurate reflection of where we’re at.

I hope you are right but 14 months off the RWC, I'd hope to be debating wins with tweaks to improve performances. The fact is we are debating defeat after defeat with the last two against 14 men. I posted at the time of the red card on Saturday that it would be a disgrace if we lost from that point. Swallowing ten spinach cans of positivity would not alter that much. Maybe, within the chaos of the last two years' results there is cause for optimism. It seems a forlorn hope somehow but good on you for your positivity.

I wouldn’t say it is positivity exactly. I’m just trying to offer some perspective.

Simply put, I’d say there were some positives we need to be building on but a whole heap of less positive things we need to sort out.

My point is that this place feels like it’s all negatives and 0 positives which just isn’t true.

The negativity is understandable. In truth, England are a pretty average team, look disorganized, are not improving and show little attacking flair. They are short of really good players, especially in the backs.

[Banquo]

I’m as frustrated as anyone, but I find that there’s such a heavy skew towards relentless negativity that makes me want to go in the other direction.

For every positive post, there are five or more negative ones.

I don’t feel that is an accurate reflection of where we’re at.

I think it is pretty accurate, though I think you are overegging the negative picture- a lot of folks still try to support Eddie and all support the team- but this years results and esp performances have been poor and been scratchy for a couple of years. We are struggling hugely I think; its not Eddie's fault that we are struggling for quality players esp in the backs, but it is his issue (and the players, of course) that we fold under pressure, have poor discipline etc- and I think that's undeniable.

[fivepointer]

I hope you are right but 14 months off the RWC, I'd hope to be debating wins with tweaks to improve performances. The fact is we are debating defeat after defeat with the last two against 14 men. I posted at the time of the red card on Saturday that it would be a disgrace if we lost from that point. Swallowing ten spinach cans of positivity would not alter that much. Maybe, within the chaos of the last two years' results there is cause for optimism. It seems a forlorn hope somehow but good on you for your positivity.

I wouldn’t say it is positivity exactly. I’m just trying to offer some perspective.

Simply put, I’d say there were some positives we need to be building on but a whole heap of less positive things we need to sort out.

My point is that this place feels like it’s all negatives and 0 positives which just isn’t true.

The negativity is understandable. In truth, England are a pretty average team, look disorganized, are not improving and show little attacking flair. They are short of really good players, especially in the backs.

This, i think, is the main source of disappointment. If we were looking better and there were clear signs of improvement losing wouldnt be so hard to take.
Fact is we've gone nowhere since the 2019 WC.

[Timbo]

I actually think the comments have been really measured on here. I’ve been on this forum after good wins when we’ve played pretty well and it’s been like a morgue, so pleasantly surprised

That said, I feel pretty low about the team at the moment. I don’t really like what we’re trying to do as I don’t think the tactics suits the players we have. And in the context of what we are supposedly setting up to do and the way the modern game is going a lot of Eddie’s selections leave me scratching my head. I also can’t shake the feeling that the players don’t fully buy in either. But that’s obviously just conjecture.

I’m under no illusion that this is an all time great squad of players, but equally seems clear to me that there’s enough quality there that if managed well you could build a pretty formidable team of a similar level to that of 2019.

[badback]

I actually think the comments have been really measured on here. I’ve been on this forum after good wins when we’ve played pretty well and it’s been like a morgue, so pleasantly surprised

That said, I feel pretty low about the team at the moment. I don’t really like what we’re trying to do as I don’t think the tactics suits the players we have. And in the context of what we are supposedly setting up to do and the way the modern game is going a lot of Eddie’s selections leave me scratching my head. I also can’t shake the feeling that the players don’t fully buy in either. But that’s obviously just conjecture.

I’m under no illusion that this is an all time great squad of players, but equally seems clear to me that there’s enough quality there that if managed well you could build a pretty formidable team of a similar level to that of 2019.

I feel like the comments have been pretty measured too. The head scratcher for me is what’s going wrong. Granted the players are not (apparently) that special, there are nonetheless some good ones. And some possible great ones (Itoje… ?Arundell maybe one day).

I am surprised by some of the selection choices. Why not lawes at lock? Why not Marler? It seems pretty obvious to me Marler’s the best scrummaging prop and also pretty obvious the scrum needs help.

But then there are other parts that it feels the realistic truth is there isn’t an easy fix. Fly half. Centre. Wings.

I don’t watch much premiership rugby so I may be missing all sorts. Maybe Marler’s injured!

I agree with whoever said we seem - to put it charitably - a bit thick. But how do you fix that?

[Raggs]

I feel like the comments have been pretty measured too. The head scratcher for me is what’s going wrong. Granted the players are not (apparently) that special, there are nonetheless some good ones. And some possible great ones (Itoje… ?Arundell maybe one day).

I am surprised by some of the selection choices. Why not lawes at lock? Why not Marler? It seems pretty obvious to me Marler’s the best scrummaging prop and also pretty obvious the scrum needs help.

But then there are other parts that it feels the realistic truth is there isn’t an easy fix. Fly half. Centre. Wings.

I don’t watch much premiership rugby so I may be missing all sorts. Maybe Marler’s injured!

I agree with whoever said we seem - to put it charitably - a bit thick. But how do you fix that?

Lawes hasn't played lock properly for seasons. Marler doesn't travel away from his family much, except for world cups. We know what he offers, much like Ford, I'm happy for him to be left at home if there's no reason to bring him (and reason to leave him).

[FKAS]

I feel like the comments have been pretty measured too. The head scratcher for me is what’s going wrong. Granted the players are not (apparently) that special, there are nonetheless some good ones. And some possible great ones (Itoje… ?Arundell maybe one day).

I am surprised by some of the selection choices. Why not lawes at lock? Why not Marler? It seems pretty obvious to me Marler’s the best scrummaging prop and also pretty obvious the scrum needs help.

But then there are other parts that it feels the realistic truth is there isn’t an easy fix. Fly half. Centre. Wings.

I don’t watch much premiership rugby so I may be missing all sorts. Maybe Marler’s injured!

I agree with whoever said we seem - to put it charitably - a bit thick. But how do you fix that?

Lawes hasn't played lock properly for seasons. Marler doesn't travel away from his family much, except for world cups. We know what he offers, much like Ford, I'm happy for him to be left at home if there's no reason to bring him (and reason to leave him).

I think Marler and Sinckler not being available is quite handy for England. Gives us chance to get some younger props into the squad and ingrained in how we want to play. Should give us better options for the world cup next year, particularly if there's injuries. Really Heyes needs more time off the bench this weekend. We want to make sure he's up to speed at international level if he's going to the world cup next year in case there's an injury to Sinckler or Stuart, don't want his exposure to be Vs USA and Canada alone and then him having to come on against a tier 1 nation in a big match.

[Oakboy]

I actually think the comments have been really measured on here. I’ve been on this forum after good wins when we’ve played pretty well and it’s been like a morgue, so pleasantly surprised

That said, I feel pretty low about the team at the moment. I don’t really like what we’re trying to do as I don’t think the tactics suits the players we have. And in the context of what we are supposedly setting up to do and the way the modern game is going a lot of Eddie’s selections leave me scratching my head. I also can’t shake the feeling that the players don’t fully buy in either. But that’s obviously just conjecture.

I’m under no illusion that this is an all time great squad of players, but equally seems clear to me that there’s enough quality there that if managed well you could build a pretty formidable team of a similar level to that of 2019.

You suggest that maybe the players are not fully on board with the coaching message. It might be 'only conjecture' but the evidence is there to an extent when they apparently lack fight, especially to the extent of being beaten by 14-man teams twice in succession.

Opinion varies on how good our players are. Accepting that we have few (or no) world beaters, the main objective has to be improving fitness and togetherness. There is absolutely no excuse for the team to be less than the sum of its parts. Motivation and cohesion are essential first targets for the coaching crew in our circumstances. Results suggest those targets are not being set, never mind achieved. Over-complicating is counter-productive.

Any player with experience and brain must have some doubts. Collectively, they cannot enjoy being regular under-achievers.

[Timbo]

I actually think the comments have been really measured on here. I’ve been on this forum after good wins when we’ve played pretty well and it’s been like a morgue, so pleasantly surprised

That said, I feel pretty low about the team at the moment. I don’t really like what we’re trying to do as I don’t think the tactics suits the players we have. And in the context of what we are supposedly setting up to do and the way the modern game is going a lot of Eddie’s selections leave me scratching my head. I also can’t shake the feeling that the players don’t fully buy in either. But that’s obviously just conjecture.

I’m under no illusion that this is an all time great squad of players, but equally seems clear to me that there’s enough quality there that if managed well you could build a pretty formidable team of a similar level to that of 2019.

You suggest that maybe the players are not fully on board with the coaching message. It might be 'only conjecture' but the evidence is there to an extent when they apparently lack fight, especially to the extent of being beaten by 14-man teams twice in succession.

I don’t think they lack fight. I think they’re working their arses off and doing absolutely everything they can to turn this around. I also think that collectively there is a lot of respect for Jones. But either the messaging or environment is not optimal for the rugby they are trying to play. To me the evidence for that is in the public statements, where there’s constant talk of ‘new England’ and positivity and attacking mindsets, yet on the field they’re very often hesitant and deeply conservative. Maybe it’s just confidence?

I don’t think the quality of the coaching team is anywhere near where it was heading into the last World Cup either- it was about this time in the last cycle that Mitchell and Weismantel came in, and they both made a massive difference.

[Banquo]

I actually think the comments have been really measured on here. I’ve been on this forum after good wins when we’ve played pretty well and it’s been like a morgue, so pleasantly surprised

That said, I feel pretty low about the team at the moment. I don’t really like what we’re trying to do as I don’t think the tactics suits the players we have. And in the context of what we are supposedly setting up to do and the way the modern game is going a lot of Eddie’s selections leave me scratching my head. I also can’t shake the feeling that the players don’t fully buy in either. But that’s obviously just conjecture.

I’m under no illusion that this is an all time great squad of players, but equally seems clear to me that there’s enough quality there that if managed well you could build a pretty formidable team of a similar level to that of 2019.

You suggest that maybe the players are not fully on board with the coaching message. It might be 'only conjecture' but the evidence is there to an extent when they apparently lack fight, especially to the extent of being beaten by 14-man teams twice in succession.

I don’t think they lack fight. I think they’re working their arses off and doing absolutely everything they can to turn this around. I also think that collectively there is a lot of respect for Jones. But either the messaging or environment is not optimal for the rugby they are trying to play. To me the evidence for that is in the public statements, where there’s constant talk of ‘new England’ and positivity and attacking mindsets, yet on the field they’re very often hesitant and deeply conservative. Maybe it’s just confidence?

I don’t think the quality of the coaching team is anywhere near where it was heading into the last World Cup either- it was about this time in the last cycle that Mitchell and Weismantel came in, and they both made a massive difference.

I don't think they know how to 'fight' (back)/change momentum tbh- if the script goes wrong the answer seems to be indiscipline and loss of composure. This could stem from such tight planning and such 'control' from the coach and coaching staff, which in itself stems from Eddie's lack of trust in innate skills, decision making, and skills. If you look at what gave us success in the 2019 RWC it was pretty simple, if well planned rugby- direct, intense play; Eddie seems to be wanting a more sophisticated - at least in attack- model, probably because he doesn't think we have the physicality to attack directly. Unfortunately, in attack, see earlier- its difficult, relies on accuracy, decision making, and actually some star quality to make telling interventions.

As per your earlier point, it doesn't look like quite the right tactics for the players we have.

[Mellsblue]

Interesting stat:
England have lost the last 20mins of every match this year other than vs Italy.

[Oakboy]

Interesting stat:
England have lost the last 20mins of every match this year other than vs Italy.

Reason? Something is clearly lacking.

[Mikey Brown]

"Finishers"

[Mikey Brown]

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.tel ... second-row

[Mikey Brown]

He's just reading this forum and trying to sell our own opinions back to us. Sneaky bastard.

[FKAS]

Interesting stat:
England have lost the last 20mins of every match this year other than vs Italy.

Outside of the enforced change at half time we only replaced hooker and loosehead before the last 10 mins and LCD came on with not much more than 10 mins and after the tide had turned. Australia used two subs before their first try and another two before their second.

Maybe Eddie should take a leaf out of his former number 2s book. Borthwick stacks the bench with impact and will use nearly all of it before the 60th minute. Refresh the side early so when the opposition tire your fresh bodies all already up to the speed of the game. Could Care and Stuart perhaps come off earlier than 78 minutes? They had both put a shift in, why ask them to bury themselves when we've got some good options on the bench, particularly Heyes for Stuart.

[Timbo]

Yes, Eddie’s use of the bench has been ropey for a while. Strange considering it was something he was so good at when he first came.

[Mikey Brown]

I wondered how much of Care playing so long was having a noob on the bench, or how much Jones wanted to see that he's still up to it? Why you'd want a 35 year old 9 playing 80 minutes I don't know, but in that case having JVP on the bench never seemed like the right move if he's not trusted.

[Banquo]

I wondered how much of Care playing so long was having a noob on the bench, or how much Jones wanted to see that he's still up to it? Why you'd want a 35 year old 9 playing 80 minutes I don't know, but in that case having JVP on the bench never seemed like the right move if he's not trusted.

Bit harsh on JVP, unless you mean newbie

[p/d]

Stack the pack, get the 9/10 to keep oppo on back foot. Fliers either side of Steward and let the centres work on the lyrics for next years Eurovision entry.

We need to beat them up and kick the life out of the game. If nothing else we can reignite the dislike for us along with the Mexican Wave

[Banquo]

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.tel ... second-row

The real takeaway is that despite being a nob, Hill is a pretty decent lock.

[Banquo]

Stack the pack, get the 9/10 to keep oppo on back foot. Fliers either side of Steward and let the centres work on the lyrics for next years Eurovision entry.

We need to beat them up and kick the life out of the game. If nothing else we can reignite the dislike for us along with the Mexican Wave

what does 'stack the pack' mean?