England vs Argentina

[Banquo]

I can make some sort of peace with the forward, if we pretend Willis doesn't exist....

But the backs!

Why? Where do you start. So slow. So lacking in complementary skills

Good distribution skills at 10/12

Not even sure about that, I wouldn't put it at the top of either players skill set, esp Faz.

[Oakboy]

This recharacterisation of Cokanasiga as a slow international winger is….bizarre.

actually, where has that been said directly? But it is a slow back line by intl standards.

Define slow/fast??? By international wing standards, Coka and Nowell are not in the top ten. Each have other merits and an argument can be made for one or the other with a speed merchant on the other wing.

With Steward at FB, Daly and Coka (OR Nowell) makes more sense, IMO

[Banquo]

This recharacterisation of Cokanasiga as a slow international winger is….bizarre.

actually, where has that been said directly? But it is a slow back line by intl standards.

Define slow/fast??? By international wing standards, Coka and Nowell are not in the top ten. Each have other merits and an argument can be made for one or the other with a speed merchant on the other wing.

With Steward at FB, Daly and Coka (OR Nowell) makes more sense, IMO

I don't think Coka is slow or very fast, but that's not his USP. Nowell remains a mystery to me internationally- gutsy, elusive, does useful things, but....meh, at intl level, where his 1-1 defence is poor, and his top end speed is lacking. We are not stocked with riches in the backline though with Freeman left out and Arundell crocked (and tbf those two still have to sustain impact). I agree that Daly plus Steward plus someone is the best we should be doing- but its not long since Daly was being derided on this board.

[Banquo]

BTW- two bench backs, with three sick notes in the backs is just odd. 6:2 is reprehensible anyway

[Mellsblue]

its not long since Daly was being derided on this board.

At 15, tbf.

[Banquo]

its not long since Daly was being derided on this board.

At 15, tbf.

....and 13...and both were kind of fair. But he's a top winger.

[Mellsblue]

its not long since Daly was being derided on this board.

At 15, tbf.

....and 13...and both were kind of fair. But he's a top winger.

Yep.

[FKAS]

I can make some sort of peace with the forward, if we pretend Willis doesn't exist....

But the backs!

Why? Where do you start. So slow. So lacking in complementary skills

Good distribution skills at 10/12

Not even sure about that, I wouldn't put it at the top of either players skill set, esp Faz.

I'm not really at home praising Farrell but he's been very good ball in hand so far this season and the new attacking Sarries are a worryingly good watch. Farrell is probably the league's form 10 which hasn't been the case for some time.

[Banquo]

Good distribution skills at 10/12

Not even sure about that, I wouldn't put it at the top of either players skill set, esp Faz.

I'm not really at home praising Farrell but he's been very good ball in hand so far this season and the new attacking Sarries are a worryingly good watch. Farrell is probably the league's form 10 which hasn't been the case for some time.

Yeah, you said before. But a- that’s club level, b- it’s at 10, and c- I don’t think he looks any different to previous seasons except Sarries are kicking a bit less from 9. He’s still robotic and still iffy passing to the right and running at the same time. He just isn’t a natural distributor of the ball. As I said, it’s not the top of his skill set.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, I'm seeing lots of others offloading and moving the ball a bit more than they tended to at times. It's hard not to sound like I'm (one of many) just attacking Farrell for everything he does, but I just don't see any sort of transformation, or him having added any strings to his bow.

I do think he looks fit (recent concussion aside) and fired up, and is controlling the team well, probably the best I've seen him play since the world cup to be honest. I just don't see him doing much differently in terms of attack.

[Oakboy]

I wish there was something really new to debate but we are stuck with Jones till after the RWC and can only hope for a shock. After the 2019 final I was convinced that the way forward was to discard all players who had peaked and re-build with a new head coach. To an extent, Jones seemed to have some thoughts in that direction, leaving out Ford, George, the Vs and Youngs. Now, apart from Ford currently out of contention with injury, most of the old stalwarts are still there, including Farrell at 12.

Is Genge the single cause for hope? Or, can we include Smith? Steward looks pleasingly solid, I suppose. Change is in small portions in terms of individual selection apart from injury-forced choices.

That leaves the collective unit. Can Jones get a much improved team performance game on game from a very similar group of players? We can only hope so, despite woeful 6N results. He has to win all the AIs convincingly to be on the right track.

[Banquo]

Yeah, I'm seeing lots of others offloading and moving the ball a bit more than they tended to at times. It's hard not to sound like I'm (one of many) just attacking Farrell for everything he does, but I just don't see any sort of transformation, or him having added any strings to his bow.

I do think he looks fit (recent concussion aside) and fired up, and is controlling the team well, probably the best I've seen him play since the world cup to be honest. I just don't see him doing much differently in terms of attack.

Yup- I'm a bit of a debbie downer on Faz too, and he is a very good club 10 and always has been.

[FKAS]

Not even sure about that, I wouldn't put it at the top of either players skill set, esp Faz.

I'm not really at home praising Farrell but he's been very good ball in hand so far this season and the new attacking Sarries are a worryingly good watch. Farrell is probably the league's form 10 which hasn't been the case for some time.

Yeah, you said before. But a- that’s club level, b- it’s at 10, and c- I don’t think he looks any different to previous seasons except Sarries are kicking a bit less from 9. He’s still robotic and still iffy passing to the right and running at the same time. He just isn’t a natural distributor of the ball. As I said, it’s not the top of his skill set.

Yeah he's never been great passing off his left hand. There just seems to be a mindset shift as opposed to him necessarily adding strings to his bow. He's looking for the runners and to isolate defenders in the outside channels from far deeper down the field than he used to. Sarries used to really only play in the opposition third. In the middle of the pitch Farrell used to kick a fair bit, looking to pull up the defence and then leave the opposition catcher isolated as the wolf pack descended.

Very similar with England though they kick more from the 9 even than Sarries used to. If he's looking for the opportunities to move the ball and isolate the defenders more than he is pragmatism then that will hopefully help him and Smith gel. I don't think it's easy to just flick a switch mentally and go from pragmatism to more expansive, I guess we'll see over the next few weeks.

I think the starting 9, 10 and 12 all have to prove they deserve to keep hold of those shirts. I can easily see the 9 and 10 being replaced pre world cup, Farrell is somewhat fortunate there's a lack of EQ options at 12.

[twitchy]

[p/d]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

[Banquo]

I'm not really at home praising Farrell but he's been very good ball in hand so far this season and the new attacking Sarries are a worryingly good watch. Farrell is probably the league's form 10 which hasn't been the case for some time.

Yeah, you said before. But a- that’s club level, b- it’s at 10, and c- I don’t think he looks any different to previous seasons except Sarries are kicking a bit less from 9. He’s still robotic and still iffy passing to the right and running at the same time. He just isn’t a natural distributor of the ball. As I said, it’s not the top of his skill set.

Yeah he's never been great passing off his left hand. There just seems to be a mindset shift as opposed to him necessarily adding strings to his bow. He's looking for the runners and to isolate defenders in the outside channels from far deeper down the field than he used to. Sarries used to really only play in the opposition third. In the middle of the pitch Farrell used to kick a fair bit, looking to pull up the defence and then leave the opposition catcher isolated as the wolf pack descended.

Very similar with England though they kick more from the 9 even than Sarries used to. If he's looking for the opportunities to move the ball and isolate the defenders more than he is pragmatism then that will hopefully help him and Smith gel. I don't think it's easy to just flick a switch mentally and go from pragmatism to more expansive, I guess we'll see over the next few weeks.

I think the starting 9, 10 and 12 all have to prove they deserve to keep hold of those shirts. I can easily see the 9 and 10 being replaced pre world cup, Farrell is somewhat fortunate there's a lack of EQ options at 12.

Nope, not seeing a step change, his skills haven't really improved, and in any case he's playing 12 in a different team. Personally he's best as a bench option in case we need a kicker. But as you say, zippo competition at 12, and he doesn't even play there for his club, and hasn't for a long time.

[FKAS]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

[p/d]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Oops. I meant Tuilaga and Porter.

[Mellsblue]

Youngs
Farrell
Cueto
Tuilagi
Porter
Banahan
Steward

That’s the dream.

[Banquo]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Here's hoping Manu stays fit

[Banquo]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Has Porter done much at 12?

[twitchy]

Youngs
Farrell
Cueto
Tuilagi
Porter
Banahan
Steward

That’s the dream.

No jamie noon?

[Mellsblue]

Youngs
Farrell
Cueto
Tuilagi
Porter
Banahan
Steward

That’s the dream.

No jamie noon?

Bloody good point. Sorry Manu, you’re benched.

[FKAS]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Oops. I meant Tuilaga and Porter.

Manu won't be fit for that long.

[FKAS]

Had hoped to see Farrell and Porter linking up in midfield

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Has Porter done much at 12?

Last season when covering for the injured Kelly. He's better at 13 but I suspect the same issues would come to light. He's only got a small amount of top level experience full stop let alone at centre. He's got to work on his defensive positioning. Give him the ball and he'll go forward with purpose but he does tend to look more dangerous when one on one as he's pretty tough to put down and as surprisingly good footwork (see his try Vs Newcastle last season).