England vs Argentina

[Banquo]

Porter is playing for Tigers this weekend so maybe next week.

Has Porter done much at 12?

Last season when covering for the injured Kelly. He's better at 13 but I suspect the same issues would come to light. He's only got a small amount of top level experience full stop let alone at centre. He's got to work on his defensive positioning. Give him the ball and he'll go forward with purpose but he does tend to look more dangerous when one on one as he's pretty tough to put down and as surprisingly good footwork (see his try Vs Newcastle last season).

Was just thinking Tomkins really struggled in defence at 13 internationally, but has been a revelation all round at 12. You need different defensive skills, and maybe Porter just isn't suited to 13 defence; as you say, little experience (and its pretty brutal to learn 13 on the job intly, as demonstrated!)

[FKAS]

Has Porter done much at 12?

Last season when covering for the injured Kelly. He's better at 13 but I suspect the same issues would come to light. He's only got a small amount of top level experience full stop let alone at centre. He's got to work on his defensive positioning. Give him the ball and he'll go forward with purpose but he does tend to look more dangerous when one on one as he's pretty tough to put down and as surprisingly good footwork (see his try Vs Newcastle last season).

Was just thinking Tomkins really struggled in defence at 13 internationally, but has been a revelation all round at 12. You need different defensive skills, and maybe Porter just isn't suited to 13 defence; as you say, little experience (and its pretty brutal to learn 13 on the job intly, as demonstrated!)

Yeah not an easy job. It's just over a dozen starts at 13 for Tigers as well and before that he was playing rugby for Sydney University. He's got the raw attributes just needs to refine them a bit. With any luck he'll get a good string of games together for Tigers between now and the 6N at 13 to stand a better chance.

Tompkins was Barrett's understudy at Sarries so I thought he was always better suited to 12 than 13 and it was more a case of the Dragons and Wales needing someone to play 13 that forced him into that role.

Hopefully Kelly will return soon for Tigers. He was sensational last season and a key part to Tigers long unbeaten run.

[Banquo]

Last season when covering for the injured Kelly. He's better at 13 but I suspect the same issues would come to light. He's only got a small amount of top level experience full stop let alone at centre. He's got to work on his defensive positioning. Give him the ball and he'll go forward with purpose but he does tend to look more dangerous when one on one as he's pretty tough to put down and as surprisingly good footwork (see his try Vs Newcastle last season).

Was just thinking Tomkins really struggled in defence at 13 internationally, but has been a revelation all round at 12. You need different defensive skills, and maybe Porter just isn't suited to 13 defence; as you say, little experience (and its pretty brutal to learn 13 on the job intly, as demonstrated!)

Yeah not an easy job. It's just over a dozen starts at 13 for Tigers as well and before that he was playing rugby for Sydney University. He's got the raw attributes just needs to refine them a bit. With any luck he'll get a good string of games together for Tigers between now and the 6N at 13 to stand a better chance.

Tompkins was Barrett's understudy at Sarries so I thought he was always better suited to 12 than 13 and it was more a case of the Dragons and Wales needing someone to play 13 that forced him into that role.

Hopefully Kelly will return soon for Tigers. He was sensational last season and a key part to Tigers long unbeaten run.

Tomkins did mostly play 13 until Barritt retired tho, so its worth a thought.

[Mellsblue]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

[Banquo]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

That’s kinda why I was thinking a switch to 12 might work- heavy feet at 13 is problematic.

[Mellsblue]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

That’s kinda why I was thinking a switch to 12 might work- heavy feet at 13 is problematic.

As an IC, it was Atkinson’s big weakness, and that’s before he was capped at least two (still autocorrecting to Te’o) years too late, so not a given. I suppose it’s a sliding scale of how slow dependent on how far out you are.

[Banquo]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

That’s kinda why I was thinking a switch to 12 might work- heavy feet at 13 is problematic.

As an IC, it was Atkinson’s big weakness, and that’s before he was capped at least two (still autocorrecting to Te’o) years too late, so not a given. I suppose it’s a sliding scale of how slow dependent on how far out you are.

relatvely is right

[FKAS]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

That’s kinda why I was thinking a switch to 12 might work- heavy feet at 13 is problematic.

He's surprisingly light on his feet given he's 15 odd stone. The issues in the summer looked like he often over committed trying to cut off the outside pass. Coming up very quickly always leaves you open to being stepped. Greater experience would allow him to pick a better line/angle and arrive at less than top speed so he can manoeuvre more easily. Didn't help that by the second half of his debut that the Aussies had worked out that his favoured tactic for England was to come up hard and quick so set up plays where the option in behind had options on either side so could easily pull him out of the line and then expose his lack of support.

I think it's fixable, whether it's fixable by the world cup I'm not sure. Well at international level, I suspect that at club level he'll be sorted by then. Lawrence's form is going to be hard to ignore for long if it continues as is as well.

[Banquo]

Porter’s main issue to me, and one that isn’t particularly solvable, was slow/heavy feet when needing to react quickly to or affect a change in direction. Positioning and decision making were also poor but that is more easily solved, albeit some players just can’t defend to high standard at 13. Someone once said it’s the hardest position in which to defend but I forget who.

That’s kinda why I was thinking a switch to 12 might work- heavy feet at 13 is problematic.

He's surprisingly light on his feet given he's 15 odd stone. The issues in the summer looked like he often over committed trying to cut off the outside pass. Coming up very quickly always leaves you open to being stepped. Greater experience would allow him to pick a better line/angle and arrive at less than top speed so he can manoeuvre more easily. Didn't help that by the second half of his debut that the Aussies had worked out that his favoured tactic for England was to come up hard and quick so set up plays where the option in behind had options on either side so could easily pull him out of the line and then expose his lack of support.

I think it's fixable, whether it's fixable by the world cup I'm not sure. Well at international level, I suspect that at club level he'll be sorted by then. Lawrence's form is going to be hard to ignore for long if it continues as is as well.

Whether he is light on his feet for a 15st player is both moot and irrelevant. It’s whether he’s quick enough on his feet to play intl 13 that’s the question. He definitely got planted on them and couldn’t react and I’ve seen the same in a club shirt. Whether that’s fixable is a fair question. I did also say at the time that he was playing in a questionable system for the players available and the opposition…nonetheless he was (unsurprisingly given experience) badly exposed in decision making and footwork.

[Danno]

It's late, I'm drunk, and in the nightbus. defending Porter as anything like an international player is fucking mental. He may or may not get there but hes miles away right now. When he's keeping, say, Marchant out forb *some galaxy brain* reason, it's just insulting.

[FKAS]

It's late, I'm drunk, and in the nightbus. defending Porter as anything like an international player is fucking mental. He may or may not get there but hes miles away right now. When he's keeping, say, Marchant out forb *some galaxy brain* reason, it's just insulting.

Perhaps re-read it when sober. No one's advocating him above Marchant or Lawrence who we'd all have in the squad currently.

Porter looked good ball in hand over the summer but he got three carries over two games which makes hard to make an impression. Marchant suffered similarly in the first test with barely getting to touch the ball.

[Scrumhead]

I think your generosity towards Porter has skewed the conversation.

I know you aren’t suggesting he should be picked ahead of Marchant or Lawrence. It’s just that your continued defence of him when he didn’t look up to it is creating a strange sub plot. Without your Tigers goggles on, did he really look ‘good ball in hand’? I’d say OK would have been about as kind as it ought to have been.

[Mellsblue]

It's late, I'm drunk, and in the nightbus. defending Porter as anything like an international player is fucking mental. He may or may not get there but hes miles away right now. When he's keeping, say, Marchant out forb *some galaxy brain* reason, it's just insulting.

Perhaps re-read it when sober. No one's advocating him above Marchant or Lawrence who we'd all have in the squad currently.

Porter looked good ball in hand over the summer but he got three carries over two games which makes hard to make an impression. Marchant suffered similarly in the first test with barely getting to touch the ball.

You’ve missed Danno’s point. He arguing that there’s no way Porter is, currently, international class - an idea your Tiger tinted spectacles refuse to entertain. The fact that he also keeps out the, imo, vastly superior Marchant is merely a symptom of that.
It will be interesting to see how much ball Manu gets. Did Porter not see much due to tactics or a reticence to give him the ball.

Or what SH said.

[p/d]

I’d hope by now we would have blooded a Mack Hansen lookalike.

[Mikey Brown]

Lovely first touch for Coles.

[twitchy]

Trying to make kick tennis interesting.

[Puja]

I like these shirts. Dreading when we have to play in our home kit.

Yes, the game is that interesting.

Puja

[Puja]

Penalty to Argentina off these scrums. I bet you. We need to get it in and out rather than try and pressure.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Great finish from sleepy Joe.

[Puja]

Okay so I was wrong. Good use of setting up Cokanasiga for a one-on-one - nice set play.

Was thinking of the conversation on this board when watching him fail to even attempt the outside of Carreras with 15m of space earlier though.

Puja

[twitchy]

World class pass from youngs.

[Mellsblue]

Ben farking Youngs.

[Mellsblue]

I like these shirts. Dreading when we have to play in our home kit.

Yes, the game is that interesting.

Puja

I can’t stop staring at the Arg medics. Powder blue tracksuit and shocking pink bib is quite the look.

[Mellsblue]

Amazing hands from Coles.

[loudnconfident]

At Twickenham. Not enthused.