Eng U20s 2023

[fivepointer]

Absent an A team, playing u20's should perhaps commit you to play for that country? Playing at this level shouldnt be just a matter of convenience. If you genuinely dont intend to play for the country, then make yourself unavailable.

[Epaminondas Pules]

U20s EPS announced today. Looks pretty strong on paper, with one point of interest the appearance of Hathaway, who was involved for Wales U20s last year.

From a LI point of view, it's interesting to see Fasogbon (prop) involved. Only turned 18 at the end of August, but is a massive human and was pretty dominant carrying the ball at U18s.

Forwards
Archie McArthur (Gloucester)
George Patten (Northampton Saints)
Calum Scott (London Irish)
Finn Theobald-Thomas (Gloucester)
Nathan Jibulu (Harlequins)
Afolabi Fasogbon (London Irish)
James Halliwell (Bristol Bears)
Tim Hoyt (Leicester Tigers)
Harry Browne (Harlequins)
Lewis Chessum (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Eite (Gloucester)
Robert Carmichael (Leicester Tigers)
Finn Carnduff (Leicester Tigers)
Joshua Manz (Leicester Tigers)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Josh Dingley (Bath Rugby)
Chandler Cunningham-South (London Irish)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)

Backs
Charlie Bracken (Saracens)
Nye Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Sam Harris (Bath Rugby)
Sam Worsley (Bristol Bears)
Cassius Cleaves (Harlequins)
Joseph Woodward (Leicester Tigers)
Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (Sale Sharks)
Benjamin Waghorn (Harlequins)
Jacob Cusick (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Jenkins (Bristol Bears)
Josh Hathaway (Gloucester)
Tobias Elliott (Saracens)
Connor Slevin (Harlequins)
Louie Johnson (Newcastle Falcons)

Fair to say that is a beefy old pack! I don't think I've seen a bigger group of tightheads! Though not just bulky, it's dynamic and by no means lacking in skills.

Really pleased to see Nye Thomas in there. Would have liked to see Jake Garside too, but hey ho. Good options at flyhalf and fullback. Hopefully Joe Woodward gets good game time; he looks classy. Lacks a little sparkle in the backline. They're all decent and very talented, but I'm more excited by the forwards this year.

[twitchy]

I honestly don't understand why a welsh player has to play for england just because he lives in the west country for school? It's basically a couple of hours drive either way right? It's not like having to fly to a different hemisphere or something.

[SDHoneymonster]

Absent an A team, playing u20's should perhaps commit you to play for that country? Playing at this level shouldnt be just a matter of convenience. If you genuinely dont intend to play for the country, then make yourself unavailable.

World Rugby changed the rules a few years back so that countries couldn't name their U20s as their 'capture' side. Wales and France both definitely used to but had to change, I think South Africa and Italy did for a year or so before the law was changed as well. I think the law change was designed partly to stop the south Pacific school raids the Top 14 clubs were conducting at the time, at least unofficially.

[SDHoneymonster]

Absent an A team, playing u20's should perhaps commit you to play for that country? Playing at this level shouldnt be just a matter of convenience. If you genuinely dont intend to play for the country, then make yourself unavailable.

World Rugby changed the rules a few years back so that countries couldn't name their U20s as their 'capture' side. Wales and France both definitely used to but had to change, I think South Africa and Italy did for a year or so before the law was changed as well. I think the law change was designed partly to stop the south Pacific school raids France were conducting at the time, at least unofficially.

Also, I think a lot of the Welsh boys use it as an opportunity to train and improve in what is a better and more professional schoolboy system in England, and I suspect representing England often comes as a caveat to them being signed or offered scholarship, especially if they're England-qualified already.

[Banquo]

Absent an A team, playing u20's should perhaps commit you to play for that country? Playing at this level shouldnt be just a matter of convenience. If you genuinely dont intend to play for the country, then make yourself unavailable.

World Rugby changed the rules a few years back so that countries couldn't name their U20s as their 'capture' side. Wales and France both definitely used to but had to change, I think South Africa and Italy did for a year or so before the law was changed as well. I think the law change was designed partly to stop the south Pacific school raids France were conducting at the time, at least unofficially.

Also, I think a lot of the Welsh boys use it as an opportunity to train and improve in what is a better and more professional schoolboy system in England, and I suspect representing England often comes as a caveat to them being signed or offered scholarship, especially if they're England-qualified already.

Not just welsh boys.

[Puja]

Absent an A team, playing u20's should perhaps commit you to play for that country? Playing at this level shouldnt be just a matter of convenience. If you genuinely dont intend to play for the country, then make yourself unavailable.

World Rugby changed the rules a few years back so that countries couldn't name their U20s as their 'capture' side. Wales and France both definitely used to but had to change, I think South Africa and Italy did for a year or so before the law was changed as well. I think the law change was designed partly to stop the south Pacific school raids France were conducting at the time, at least unofficially.

Also, I think a lot of the Welsh boys use it as an opportunity to train and improve in what is a better and more professional schoolboy system in England, and I suspect representing England often comes as a caveat to them being signed or offered scholarship, especially if they're England-qualified already.

While I do get a little bit of the ire at players doing U20s for England despite their main nation being Wales, have any of those players ever been ones that we'd actually want at international level (I'm excluding Tshiunza, who mostly played Wales age groups and had one friendly for England U20s against LIrish before swapping back)? Moriarty maybe, but hardly a massive loss.

Meanwhile, we get the advantage of greater competition for our U20s having to fight to improve and earn a place, plus the opportunity to do a bit of poaching if we like the look of someone. I don't see it as the end of the world myself.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Jonny Williams
Cameron Redpath

Just about any othe inside centre, for that matter.

[Puja]

Jonny Williams
Cameron Redpath

Just about any othe inside centre, for that matter.

Neither of those were players who went through the U20s without any intention of playing for England though - they both accepted England seniors callups of varying types and decided to go another direction when England didn't cap them and a Celtic nation called them up after*. They're not really germane to the original objection.

Puja


*Although in Redpath's case, that was more injury than lack of will to cap him by England.

[SDHoneymonster]

Also worth pointing out RE: Redpath, he'd pretty much only broken through into the Bath first team six months before Scotland capped him - I know he'd already been in England squads but he was there as an apprentice and had yet to really play any first team rugby. I think he said something along the lines of he needed to be playing international rugby when he accepted the callup (also worth pointing out England did want to name him in their squad by all accounts, I think Scotland/Townsend were willing to guarantee him some game time when Jones wouldn't), which at the time struck me as slightly arrogant for someone barely out of their academy kit. On the flipside, given he'd already had significant injury problems at that point, taking your first guaranteed chance of a cap is also fairly understandable. There is also the very real possibility his dad might have disowned him had he pulled on an England shirt!

[Banquo]

Also worth pointing out RE: Redpath, he'd pretty much only broken through into the Bath first team six months before Scotland capped him - I know he'd already been in England squads but he was there as an apprentice and had yet to really play any first team rugby. I think he said something along the lines of he needed to be playing international rugby when he accepted the callup (also worth pointing out England did want to name him in their squad by all accounts, I think Scotland/Townsend were willing to guarantee him some game time when Jones wouldn't), which at the time struck me as slightly arrogant for someone barely out of their academy kit. On the flipside, given he'd already had significant injury problems at that point, taking your first guaranteed chance of a cap is also fairly understandable. There is also the very real possibility his dad might have disowned him had he pulled on an England shirt!

Fraser Dingwall has gone almost the opposite way though- interesting as they were partners in midfield too- though narrowly missing out twice on England caps. I know Fraser and his dad are both grateful to the English system for having developed him so there's a bit of that, plus Jones was always chatting to him. As is/was Townsend.

Nick Tompkins, just to annoy the mod.

[Puja]

Nick Tompkins, just to annoy the mod.

Jonny Williams
Cameron Redpath

Just about any othe inside centre, for that matter.

Neither of those were players who went through the U20s without any intention of playing for England though - they both accepted England seniors callups of varying types and decided to go another direction when England didn't cap them and a Celtic nation called them up after*. They're not really germane to the original objection.

Puja


*Although in Redpath's case, that was more injury than lack of will to cap him by England.

Puja

[Banquo]

Nick Tompkins, just to annoy the mod.

Jonny Williams
Cameron Redpath

Just about any othe inside centre, for that matter.

Neither of those were players who went through the U20s without any intention of playing for England though - they both accepted England seniors callups of varying types and decided to go another direction when England didn't cap them and a Celtic nation called them up after*. They're not really germane to the original objection.

Puja


*Although in Redpath's case, that was more injury than lack of will to cap him by England.

Puja

Perzackly, hence being irritating

[FKAS]

U20s EPS announced today. Looks pretty strong on paper, with one point of interest the appearance of Hathaway, who was involved for Wales U20s last year.

From a LI point of view, it's interesting to see Fasogbon (prop) involved. Only turned 18 at the end of August, but is a massive human and was pretty dominant carrying the ball at U18s.

Forwards
Archie McArthur (Gloucester)
George Patten (Northampton Saints)
Calum Scott (London Irish)
Finn Theobald-Thomas (Gloucester)
Nathan Jibulu (Harlequins)
Afolabi Fasogbon (London Irish)
James Halliwell (Bristol Bears)
Tim Hoyt (Leicester Tigers)
Harry Browne (Harlequins)
Lewis Chessum (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Eite (Gloucester)
Robert Carmichael (Leicester Tigers)
Finn Carnduff (Leicester Tigers)
Joshua Manz (Leicester Tigers)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Josh Dingley (Bath Rugby)
Chandler Cunningham-South (London Irish)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)

Backs
Charlie Bracken (Saracens)
Nye Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Sam Harris (Bath Rugby)
Sam Worsley (Bristol Bears)
Cassius Cleaves (Harlequins)
Joseph Woodward (Leicester Tigers)
Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (Sale Sharks)
Benjamin Waghorn (Harlequins)
Jacob Cusick (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Jenkins (Bristol Bears)
Josh Hathaway (Gloucester)
Tobias Elliott (Saracens)
Connor Slevin (Harlequins)
Louie Johnson (Newcastle Falcons)

Fair to say that is a beefy old pack! I don't think I've seen a bigger group of tightheads! Though not just bulky, it's dynamic and by no means lacking in skills.

Really pleased to see Nye Thomas in there. Would have liked to see Jake Garside too, but hey ho. Good options at flyhalf and fullback. Hopefully Joe Woodward gets good game time; he looks classy. Lacks a little sparkle in the backline. They're all decent and very talented, but I'm more excited by the forwards this year.

Apparently they've had a few outside the core EPS attend some of the training sessions so presume there's a chance others like Garside might be able to push their way in.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Yeah they usually bring a few from outside the squad in during the 6Ns, so hopefully a chance to see him, especially if Nye Thomas is still needed at Sale

[FKAS]

For the friendly Vs Oxford the team is split per each half.

First half
1. Archie McArthur

2. Finn Theobald Thomas/Calum Scott

3. Tim Hoyt/James Halliwell

4. Harry Browne

5. Lewis Chessum (c)

6. Joshua Manz

7. Josh Dingley

8. Rob Nixon

9. Charlie Bracken

10. Sam Harris

11. Josh Hathaway

12. Joseph Woodward

13. Jacob Cusick

14. Cassius Cleaves

15. Connor Slevin

Second half
1. George Patten

2. Calum Scott/Nathan Jibulu

3. James Halliwell/Afolabi Fasogbon

4. Danny Eite

5. Robert Carmichael

6. Finn Carnduff

7. Tristan Woodman

8. Zach Carr

9. Nye Thomas

10. Monty Bradbury

11. Jack Walsh

12. Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (c)

13. Louie Johnson

14. Benjamin Waghorn

15. Tobias Elliot

[Margin_Walker]

Didn't know Johnson played a bit at 13. Will be interesting to see if he shows up there as an extra distributor in the 6N. Looks like Chessum Jr and Ma'asi-White are both seen as captaincy candidates.

Nice to see Bradbury and Walsh involved from LI. Neither made the EPS, but they're both decent prospects. Walsh especially is fun to watch. Plays more at 13, but is tall, skinny and skilful. He could be a handful when a fills out a bit.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Teams for the game against Oxford Uni

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[Mellsblue]

Anyone know the teams have been selected etc etc

[SouthFalcon87]

Pepper had foot surgery recently so unlikely to be involved, Falcons saying out long term. Frustrating as he was brilliant in the 4-5 matches he played breaking into the first team. Last player who came out the academy and looked so comfortable with senior rugby was Wilson.

[Margin_Walker]

Team for Loughborough at the weekend



Subs: Theobald-Thomas, Jibulu, Opoku-Fordjour, Patten, Hoyt, Carmichael, Halliwell, Browne, Manz, Carr, Thomas, Walsh, Johnson, Waghorn, Gilderson, Slevin

[16th man]

Got to say there's some good 50s Boys Own names in there. Archie MacArthur, Monty Bradbury and Tobias Elliot are all outstanding.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Pollock is still at school, whilst it is a seriously competitive backrow.

OK, he’s not U20s yet, but Henry Pollock sure will be….

[Mr Mwenda]

Is "worldy" the name for his haircut?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Is "worldy" the name for his haircut?

Yeah, that’s erm….quite some lid……