Ireland to finish

[Banquo]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

I've been saying that about Itoje since the Scotland game. Everybody banging on about his 'game changing moments not being there'....explain how he can do that when he's hitting that many rucks, as well as scrummaging and lineout and restart and the odd carry. His tasking has changed, and not in a small way.

[Banquo]

Not sure what the plot at the breakdown is tbh

[francoisfou]

How much slack should we be giving Sergeant Bilko (you young'uns won't have heard of him!) for the disappointing 6N? (unless there's an unexpected surprise tomorrow!)
How much was he hamstrung with the squad of players that he inherited from Eddie?
The World Cup is approaching fast and Bilko, as far as I know, only has the August Tests (Wales away on August 5th and again at home on Aug 12th, Ireland away on Aug 19th and Fiji at home on Aug 26th) to bring in new players before heading for France in the first week of September.
Time is indeed tight.

[Insouciant]

Probably will be a odd pass. Just the one.

This is surprisingly accurate. Article on BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64991288) has a graphic stating that Arundell has:
6 appearances for England,
77 minutes in total,
2 tries
6 touches of the ball <--- 1 per game

Scoring in 1/3 of games isn't too shabby, but 1/3 of his touches? I'm impressed.

[fivepointer]

How much slack should we be giving Sergeant Bilko (you young'uns won't have heard of him!) for the disappointing 6N? (unless there's an unexpected surprise tomorrow!)
How much was he hamstrung with the squad of players that he inherited from Eddie?
The World Cup is approaching fast and Bilko, as far as I know, only has the August Tests (Wales away on August 5th and again at home on Aug 12th, Ireland away on Aug 19th and Fiji at home on Aug 26th) to bring in new players before heading for France in the first week of September.
Time is indeed tight.

Oh i've cut him a lot of slack. He's a rookie international coach who has inherited a team in decline, with a mixed squad which has some serious deficiencies.
He will make mistakes, will take us up the odd blind alley and will be found wanting (see last week). Just got to accept thats where he and the team are.
Bringing us around will take time and patience.
It wont happen by the WC. We have a favourable draw and getting to a QF is probably as much as we can hope for.

[TheDasher]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that they're definite, indisputable, surefire improvements, that would be an odd thing to do... not sure anyone is.

I was making the point that he does have talented, interesting options to look at post 6ns, players with talent, presumably drive and motivation to wear a white shirt and who have at times excelled or stood out in club rugby at a young age.

Not for one minute suggesting they'll take us to immediate glory, but that in what is a relatively weak talent pool, there are still some potentially very interesting options.

Not sure that's an outlandish claim.

Yeah, it’s a just reaction to this idea that if you list the next cabs off the rank they’ll def be better than the incumbents when 9/10 there’s a reason the incumbent is playing and the next cab off the rank isn’t.
You mention Underhill who spends more time concussed than playing, Collier who I think is an average Prem player, Stuart who has had more bad than good games for Eng albeit his most recent ones are his good ones, OHC who has looked poor so far and then a bunch with potential but who have proved nothing.
Who is not in the squad who you look at and think he could be world class? Quirke at a push maybe…

Again, listing players that aren't in this squad that are exciting/interesting and that could help improve our fortunes going forward (which is what we're all talking about) isn't the same as saying those players will change everything. My point was that the cupboard isn't completely empty, there are some good options there.

I mention Underhill alongside other flankers - I think we have a pretty decent stock of flankers personally, I don't think 6 and 7 are of massive concern after this tournament. Earl, T Curry, Lawes, Underhill, Pearson, Willis before we get to Ludlam, B Curry etc. Some reasonable options there.

I've noticed people saying OHC has looked poor. He hasn't had the ball! The guy has been ripping up the prem, is quick, strong and a great finisher, he's shown immense promise in his career so far. He's played in a couple of England games so far and had zero opportunity. Incidentally I wouldn't start him anyway but I think saying he's been poor is harsh. If Arundell has two quiet games from here on out because he hasn't had the ball, is he poor?

I'd say that Will Stuart has showed great promise in his recent England games, he's a young, big powerful guy (it helps) and scrummages and carries well. Sinckler does neither currently.

Collier's reputation as one of the best scrummaging English props suggests he's not that average. What does Marler do other than scrummage well? Not much and he's not described as average is he? If I was Smashed Brokenose I'd certainly have him involved if we're serious about trying to stop the rot at scrum time.

Re your question, who could be world class? Different debate. I am saying there is some genuinely interesting talent in the wider pool for him to look at that might help lift us later this year and beyond.

Before he was picked I'm not sure Ollivon was regarded as world class and not many here would've said he would be. We can't pick young prem players and know who will be world class but we can try and guess if they'll add value to our fortunes over the next two years if managed well.

[Mikey Brown]

He tackles like an absolute bastard for one thing, which we’ve missed a lot. He’s not Lawes/Underhill but he’s probably the next best thing.

I’m guessing all the in/out disciplinary stuff was too much for Borthwick though, which I could totally accept if he was giving Rodd/VRR a shot.

[Raggs]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

I've been saying that about Itoje since the Scotland game. Everybody banging on about his 'game changing moments not being there'....explain how he can do that when he's hitting that many rucks, as well as scrummaging and lineout and restart and the odd carry. His tasking has changed, and not in a small way.

Launch had the same thing for wasps and England as he developed from young tyro to genuine nuts and bolts player (with huge engine).

[FKAS]

Billy seems to be losing the ball in contact a lot, its strange.

It was always a weakness of his, right back from his Wasps days. I think the difference was that, at his peak, he was dominating the contact hard enough that the ball wasn't under any pressure. Now that he's slowed down a yard or two, it's more likely that a defender can get in a decent hit or a strip on the ball.

Puja

it was a weakness at wasps, tru dat, but definitely disappeared in his heyday, so you may be right....may also be that Sarries are looking for a bit more fluidity, so looking for offloads. Either way, a shame, because I think he'd be a handy player instead of AD frankly.

Billy V isn't performing well enough we need to move on -> X is a good player let's give him a go instead -> X isn't providing the go forward we need -> I think Billy V can still do a job for us -> Billy V isn't performing well enough we need to move on...

Pretty much sums up the last few years it seems.

[Peej]

On any other 10 Farrell's kicking stats would be the reason given why they aren't selected.

[Banquo]

It was always a weakness of his, right back from his Wasps days. I think the difference was that, at his peak, he was dominating the contact hard enough that the ball wasn't under any pressure. Now that he's slowed down a yard or two, it's more likely that a defender can get in a decent hit or a strip on the ball.

Puja

it was a weakness at wasps, tru dat, but definitely disappeared in his heyday, so you may be right....may also be that Sarries are looking for a bit more fluidity, so looking for offloads. Either way, a shame, because I think he'd be a handy player instead of AD frankly.

Billy V isn't performing well enough we need to move on -> X is a good player let's give him a go instead -> X isn't providing the go forward we need -> I think Billy V can still do a job for us -> Billy V isn't performing well enough we need to move on...

Pretty much sums up the last few years it seems.

very fair summation and says much. Faz excepted.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

Shows up surprisingly well here too.

[FKAS]

Show me how many metres in average through contract per carry first. Then depending on the results I might be impressed.

[Mellsblue]

Or transfer him to Tigers…

[FKAS]

Or transfer him to Tigers…

Yet a Tigers player is top of the list for the stats I'm questioning the usefulness of.

[Mellsblue]

Or transfer him to Tigers…

Yet a Tigers player is top of the list for the stats I'm questioning the usefulness of.

And you didn’t question his average…

[Banquo]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

I've been saying that about Itoje since the Scotland game. Everybody banging on about his 'game changing moments not being there'....explain how he can do that when he's hitting that many rucks, as well as scrummaging and lineout and restart and the odd carry. His tasking has changed, and not in a small way.

Launch had the same thing for wasps and England as he developed from young tyro to genuine nuts and bolts player (with huge engine).

Fair, but Itoje has roughly doubled his ruck involvement under Stultifyingly Boring.

[Danno]

Or transfer him to Tigers…

Yet a Tigers player is top of the list for the stats I'm questioning the usefulness of.

You must see it by now

[Mellsblue]

“Siri, what is the best example of hope over expectation?”
Siri:


I don’t think I’ve ever woken up on the morning of an England match so resigned to losing. It’s a bloody good job I’ll have had five hours of drinking before kickoff to dull the pain.

[Banquo]

“Siri, what is the best example of hope over expectation?”
Siri:


I don’t think I’ve ever woken up on the morning of an England match so resigned to losing. It’s a bloody good job I’ll have had five hours of drinking before kickoff to dull the pain.

Good luck

[Oakboy]

How much slack should we be giving Sergeant Bilko (you young'uns won't have heard of him!) for the disappointing 6N? (unless there's an unexpected surprise tomorrow!)
How much was he hamstrung with the squad of players that he inherited from Eddie?
The World Cup is approaching fast and Bilko, as far as I know, only has the August Tests (Wales away on August 5th and again at home on Aug 12th, Ireland away on Aug 19th and Fiji at home on Aug 26th) to bring in new players before heading for France in the first week of September.
Time is indeed tight.

Oh i've cut him a lot of slack. He's a rookie international coach who has inherited a team in decline, with a mixed squad which has some serious deficiencies.
He will make mistakes, will take us up the odd blind alley and will be found wanting (see last week). Just got to accept thats where he and the team are.
Bringing us around will take time and patience.
It wont happen by the WC. We have a favourable draw and getting to a QF is probably as much as we can hope for.

Selection, game-plan and training-camp preparation all need to be right, of course, but we were not a few adjustments away from being a good team. 3 or 7 years (depending on viewpoint) of inconsistent (at best) management needs a minimum of two years to repair. We have a team used to losing (at a familiar level of winning 2/5 competitive matches). The core character of the squad is at rock bottom. In all probability, all past leadership participants need to be discarded completely with a whole new approach built around a new captaincy.

Talk of player A outside the squad being no better than player B inside it rather misses the point, IMO. B is at least not tainted by the losing habit. At present, we are losing matches in the first 5 minutes!

[16th man]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

I've been saying that about Itoje since the Scotland game. Everybody banging on about his 'game changing moments not being there'....explain how he can do that when he's hitting that many rucks, as well as scrummaging and lineout and restart and the odd carry. His tasking has changed, and not in a small way.

I'm calling it moon-on-stickism. The MoSists also want those big game changing moments but without the inevitable penalty count that comes from trying for the big plays.

Without wanting to be too "unseen work" about it, the gaping hole in some of this stuff that would be left by dropping him for the next best lock is a fairly scary thought at this point.

[Mellsblue]

“Siri, what is the best example of hope over expectation?”
Siri:


I don’t think I’ve ever woken up on the morning of an England match so resigned to losing. It’s a bloody good job I’ll have had five hours of drinking before kickoff to dull the pain.

Good luck

Ha! Yeh, I’m not sure which I’m dreading most, the England performance or my Sunday morning hangover during which I have to coach a bunch of 11 year olds.

[Mellsblue]

Today I’ll be drinking whatever Martin was on yesterday afternoon:

[Puja]

Today I’ll be drinking whatever Martin was on yesterday afternoon:

Twitter cut him off - that was supposed to read, "Ireland have one superior back line".

Puja