Agreed, he hasn't picked a pack of forward to try and be dominant up front and in the set piece. I'm not sure how/why he thinks we'll be strong enough up front, I'd love to hear him address that.
We have enough talent in the backs to challenge top sides in my view, it's the tight five and potentially at number 8 where we're in real trouble.
TBH in theory we could field a mobile and quick team that would scare others if we had the personal and unit skills to execute under intl pressure and fatigue. I think they'd run into a brick wall with SA, France and Ireland though, probably. But then again, I think the same would be true for the ultra physical 23 we could nearly put out
I suppose choosing between the two is the crunch. Going for broke with the speed option would be my choice if for no other reason that it would surprise the opposition. The biggest issue with the physical route is that we are so predictable. To win with it we have to cut out all mistakes (we won't have the ball for long enough to do otherwise) and we have to have the lowest penalty count of any major team (which we have yet to achieve). I think there is actually more risk with the approach (whereas it is touted as the safety-first option).
It's tough as the speedy option would involve us getting mullered in the scrum, going backwards in a lot of collisions etc, and do we have the skills to light teams up anyway.
Conversely, does a team of VRR/Genge, George, Stuart, Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Curry, Vunipola dominate teams up front anyway? No not really.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:47 pm
It comes to something when we are talking about being like Japan to take teams by surprise when once we were feared for our physicality……..
I miss the old days.
Oh me too. World cup 2007 was a classic, I seem to remember an Easter, Dallaglio, Corry backrow with Moody and Worsley around, Simon Shaw in the 2nd row, Sheridan, Vickery etc. One of the biggest packs of all time if I remember rightly. Stodgy as shite but somehow satisfying now (painfully slow at the time). We get rag-dolled by SA, Ireland and France now.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:47 pm
It comes to something when we are talking about being like Japan to take teams by surprise when once we were feared for our physicality……..
I miss the old days.
Oh me too. World cup 2007 was a classic, I seem to remember an Easter, Dallaglio, Corry backrow with Moody and Worsley around, Simon Shaw in the 2nd row, Sheridan, Vickery etc. One of the biggest packs of all time if I remember rightly. Stodgy as shite but somehow satisfying now (painfully slow at the time). We get rag-dolled by SA, Ireland and France now.
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:47 pm
It comes to something when we are talking about being like Japan to take teams by surprise when once we were feared for our physicality……..
I miss the old days.
Oh me too. World cup 2007 was a classic, I seem to remember an Easter, Dallaglio, Corry backrow with Moody and Worsley around, Simon Shaw in the 2nd row, Sheridan, Vickery etc. One of the biggest packs of all time if I remember rightly. Stodgy as shite but somehow satisfying now (painfully slow at the time). We get rag-dolled by SA, Ireland and France now.
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
Haha yes.
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Oh me too. World cup 2007 was a classic, I seem to remember an Easter, Dallaglio, Corry backrow with Moody and Worsley around, Simon Shaw in the 2nd row, Sheridan, Vickery etc. One of the biggest packs of all time if I remember rightly. Stodgy as shite but somehow satisfying now (painfully slow at the time). We get rag-dolled by SA, Ireland and France now.
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
Haha yes.
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Mind you, SB could pick a back row of Curry, Willis and Willis. He could pick Mitchell or Quirke at 9 alongside Smith or Ford at 10. We have gas in the back three. Itoje remains one of the best locks around in terms of a skill/pace/power compromise. Marler is rarely bested in the scrum. We may be shit as selected but there's at least a core of non-shit if we were to make good use of it.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:56 pm
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
Haha yes.
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Mind you, SB could pick a back row of Curry, Willis and Willis. He could pick Mitchell or Quirke at 9 alongside Smith or Ford at 10. We have gas in the back three. Itoje remains one of the best locks around in terms of a skill/pace/power compromise. Marler is rarely bested in the scrum. We may be shit as selected but there's at least a core of non-shit if we were to make good use of it.
Raffi Quirke who started a whole 5 matches last season. Wasn't like that was injury enforced either as he benched for another 13. He's got a lot of potential but feel he's somewhat living off a good showing Vs SA as an impact sub nearly two years ago.
Until Quirke gets more regular start time and gets over his terrible injury luck it's going to be difficult for him to break back in.
Oh me too. World cup 2007 was a classic, I seem to remember an Easter, Dallaglio, Corry backrow with Moody and Worsley around, Simon Shaw in the 2nd row, Sheridan, Vickery etc. One of the biggest packs of all time if I remember rightly. Stodgy as shite but somehow satisfying now (painfully slow at the time). We get rag-dolled by SA, Ireland and France now.
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
Haha yes.
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Apart from Ribbans are all our locks now viewed as lock-cum-back row specialists?
Could do with a right pair of grizzly bastards somewhere in the mix. I’m all for admiring a prop spinning a miss pass but not at the expense of someone like Slipper’s arse going backwards at a rate of knots
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Mind you, SB could pick a back row of Curry, Willis and Willis. He could pick Mitchell or Quirke at 9 alongside Smith or Ford at 10. We have gas in the back three. Itoje remains one of the best locks around in terms of a skill/pace/power compromise. Marler is rarely bested in the scrum. We may be shit as selected but there's at least a core of non-shit if we were to make good use of it.
Raffi Quirke who started a whole 5 matches last season. Wasn't like that was injury enforced either as he benched for another 13. He's got a lot of potential but feel he's somewhat living off a good showing Vs SA as an impact sub nearly two years ago.
Until Quirke gets more regular start time and gets over his terrible injury luck it's going to be difficult for him to break back in.
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:33 pm
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
Nah. They would be lost in thought readying themselves for Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:33 pm
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
Nah. They would be lost in thought readying themselves for Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau
Mind you, SB could pick a back row of Curry, Willis and Willis. He could pick Mitchell or Quirke at 9 alongside Smith or Ford at 10. We have gas in the back three. Itoje remains one of the best locks around in terms of a skill/pace/power compromise. Marler is rarely bested in the scrum. We may be shit as selected but there's at least a core of non-shit if we were to make good use of it.
Raffi Quirke who started a whole 5 matches last season. Wasn't like that was injury enforced either as he benched for another 13. He's got a lot of potential but feel he's somewhat living off a good showing Vs SA as an impact sub nearly two years ago.
Until Quirke gets more regular start time and gets over his terrible injury luck it's going to be difficult for him to break back in.
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
And if they struggled they'd be written off and vilified in the media.
Quite, I wouldn't read imposing as size- neither Dayglo nor Read were behemoths, but players who impacted games through willpower and rugby nous(and both were good athletes at their best)..and leadership. Billy...is different, so seems a bit of an odd juxtaposition frankly.
Good old Steve.
Billy V, as an individual entity, has merit in size, strength and carrying ability. He has pretty good hands despite often coughing the ball up in contact. I can see his attributes as a player in many ways.
What I can't see is how he offers balance with any combinations on offer in the squad. Neither can I understand how he suits a 'kick for territory' game plan.
He and Lawes together provide a superb set-piece base and I can see their defensive/tackling merits. It seems inevitable that Earl will be detached unless he curbs his normal game and I don't understand why the trio is expected to gel. I don't rate Earl particularly but I can almost feel sorry for him starting for the first time in this set-up.
To argue about your most minor point, because this is the internet, Earl plays in the league with about 20% of this team, including the guy "passing", two hugely influential set piece players and the guy inside him in the backrow. If he can't make it work this week, then when?
Yep. This is very much my thinking re. Earl.
He’s used to playing with Billy and Lawes will play a similar role to McFarland. I’m not sure why some are saying the balance is off? IMO, those roles are about as balanced as it gets.
Raffi Quirke who started a whole 5 matches last season. Wasn't like that was injury enforced either as he benched for another 13. He's got a lot of potential but feel he's somewhat living off a good showing Vs SA as an impact sub nearly two years ago.
Until Quirke gets more regular start time and gets over his terrible injury luck it's going to be difficult for him to break back in.
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
And if they struggled they'd be written off and vilified in the media.
Maybe by some pundits. I think young, skilful, wholehearted triers are granted a load of slack by fans. It's the same old kick-it-up-in-the-air, mistake-ridden, penalty-conceding has-beens who are bombarded with criticism in every rugby conversation that I hear. One hard-bitten Yorkshireman I had lunch with yesterday admitted to turning the TV off mid-way through the 2nd half on Saturday. "Never done that before in 40 years of cheering for England!"
Interestingly enough England squad page on RFU Website ( https://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-men#squad ) is now showing average metres per carry stats with Chessum top forward at 5.74m and Earl top back row with 4.85m the other locks, front rows and back rows averaging between 2-3m. Billy, Lawes and Jack Willis’ stats not listed though.
You are factually correct, of course. However, I guarantee that if there was an announcement just before KO at Twickenham tomorrow that a flu epidemic had struck down all our SHs and Mitchell was starting with Quirke on the bench it would be greeted by a huge cheer. Now you've got me dreaming. Ford starts at 10 with Smith on the bench. Willis is at 7, his brother at 8 . . . . .
And if they struggled they'd be written off and vilified in the media.
Maybe by some pundits. I think young, skilful, wholehearted triers are granted a load of slack by fans. It's the same old kick-it-up-in-the-air, mistake-ridden, penalty-conceding has-beens who are bombarded with criticism in every rugby conversation that I hear. One hard-bitten Yorkshireman I had lunch with yesterday admitted to turning the TV off mid-way through the 2nd half on Saturday. "Never done that before in 40 years of cheering for England!"
Yeah cause Rodd, Dan, Blamire, Stuart, Martin, Pearson, T Willis, JVP, Smith, Cokanasiga and Steward all being involved last weekend got the team lots of respite from the media flinging shite. All of which are 25 and under and talented players with hopefully big futures in the England squad.
And if they struggled they'd be written off and vilified in the media.
Maybe by some pundits. I think young, skilful, wholehearted triers are granted a load of slack by fans. It's the same old kick-it-up-in-the-air, mistake-ridden, penalty-conceding has-beens who are bombarded with criticism in every rugby conversation that I hear. One hard-bitten Yorkshireman I had lunch with yesterday admitted to turning the TV off mid-way through the 2nd half on Saturday. "Never done that before in 40 years of cheering for England!"
Yeah cause Rodd, Dan, Blamire, Stuart, Martin, Pearson, T Willis, JVP, Smith, Cokanasiga and Steward all being involved last weekend got the team lots of respite from the media flinging shite. All of which are 25 and under and talented players with hopefully big futures in the England squad.
There is a proviso that the team tries to play some rugby!
It goes deeper than the players selected. I’m no fan of Youngs or Cate and have been disappointed by JVP’s progress - and yet it is that lack of progress that highlights the bigger problem.
I would have taken this WC and said ‘feck it’, cleared out the dross and looked to next year as the first point of putting down foundations. Thankfully that is my luxury to say that. SB has been handed a very shitty stick and will be judged on results, whatever the rhetoric is from inside and from us humble supporters. As such he doesn’t have that luxury
Maybe by some pundits. I think young, skilful, wholehearted triers are granted a load of slack by fans. It's the same old kick-it-up-in-the-air, mistake-ridden, penalty-conceding has-beens who are bombarded with criticism in every rugby conversation that I hear. One hard-bitten Yorkshireman I had lunch with yesterday admitted to turning the TV off mid-way through the 2nd half on Saturday. "Never done that before in 40 years of cheering for England!"
Yeah cause Rodd, Dan, Blamire, Stuart, Martin, Pearson, T Willis, JVP, Smith, Cokanasiga and Steward all being involved last weekend got the team lots of respite from the media flinging shite. All of which are 25 and under and talented players with hopefully big futures in the England squad.
There is a proviso that the team tries to play some rugby!
They certainly tried a lot in the first half last weekend. Second half they couldn't get anything going but there was a lot of endeavour and nearly moments in the first. Mainly spoilt by England dropping the ball.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:56 pm
Good days. I would take chants of ‘is that all you have got’ over the dross we are enduring
Haha yes.
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Apart from Ribbans are all our locks now viewed as lock-cum-back row specialists?
Could do with a right pair of grizzly bastards somewhere in the mix. I’m all for admiring a prop spinning a miss pass but not at the expense of someone like Slipper’s arse going backwards at a rate of knots
Have they dropped the Young from Young James Slipper these days?
Quite why this country isn't producing more top level locks and props I just don't know, we only need 2 more great players in each of those positions ffs. What's happened at scrum half too, give me strength.
The excitement we all feel when we see Freddie Steward producing a wonderful, MOM display at HQ, or Arundell doing what he does, Marcus Smith breaking the line, Jack Willis/Tom Curry turning the ball over etc. If only we had some special scrummaging, dominant props, a Simon Shaw Mk2, another Kyran Bracken but a 22 year old version etc.
Apart from Ribbans are all our locks now viewed as lock-cum-back row specialists?
Could do with a right pair of grizzly bastards somewhere in the mix. I’m all for admiring a prop spinning a miss pass but not at the expense of someone like Slipper’s arse going backwards at a rate of knots
Have they dropped the Young from Young James Slipper these days?
We've got Chessum Jnr on the way through in the form of big bastard lock. Might take a few seasons before he starts to look grizzled though. Hopefully he'll come through and start getting first team game time this season.
Apart from Ribbans are all our locks now viewed as lock-cum-back row specialists?
Could do with a right pair of grizzly bastards somewhere in the mix. I’m all for admiring a prop spinning a miss pass but not at the expense of someone like Slipper’s arse going backwards at a rate of knots
Have they dropped the Young from Young James Slipper these days?
We've got Chessum Jnr on the way through in the form of big bastard lock. Might take a few seasons before he starts to look grizzled though. Hopefully he'll come through and start getting first team game time this season.
He could be the litmus test for our system. Having looked so good as a junior international, will he fulfil his potential at senior level?
Have they dropped the Young from Young James Slipper these days?