Where he was forwards coach during the Eddie Jones revival of the England team? Couldn't get out of the group at a home world cup to record breaking winning run and world cup final.
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Where he was forwards coach during the Eddie Jones revival of the England team? Couldn't get out of the group at a home world cup to record breaking winning run and world cup final.
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Very different gig being head coach at international level. Borthwick is learning on the job. He isnt helped by not having much high level experience around him. Sinfield, Harrison, Wiggy arent exactly seasoned international level coaches.
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Wasn’t it Peel who turned down England not Sarries
Assuming that all three appointments were SB's first choice, have any got international mileage in them? Wigglesworth's renown as a box-kicker always suggested going in the wrong direction to me but I know insufficient to form an opinion of the other two.
Wigglesworth is going to be a skills coach with Felix Jones to be the attack coach after the world cup (SA won't release him before). Quins wouldn't loan Nick Evans for the world cup. Sarries refused to release their scrum coach so Harrison got the gig. If Tigers coaching staff hadn't been up for contract renewal then England would possibly be in more trouble as hiring coaches pre world cup isn't exactly ideal. Post world cup there's normally a lot more opportunity.
If the Prem clubs won't play nice with the RFU it's going to be difficult. Having said that but the way the RFU approached Tigers was disrespectful/unprofessional when it came to negotiating for SB and KS so it might well have been that they upset the clubs and got told to go and do one.
I think only Sinfield was Borthwick's first choice.
Wasn’t it Peel who turned down England not Sarries
You're right it was Peel's decision. Slightly worrying that with him saying that there was plenty of interest in the job and we got Harrison who is a pretty inexperienced coach at first team club level let alone international level. Now Harrison did a good job at Tigers but I was surprised he got promoted up so quickly.
rjjb wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:34 am
Borthwick simply isn't up to the job, so rebuilding may take some time.
Yeah if only he had a history of rebuilding teams and gaining success on the back of it...
One team tbf.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
He did appear to be the future, I just hope this can be a learning experience rather than a blunder that throws him too far off course.
Saying that, there are more themes from Eddie Jones’s tenure continuing in than I would have liked. A fresh start after the World Cup with a better selection of assistant coaches would clearly have given him a bit more room to do his thing, though I guess it still can.
Yeah if only he had a history of rebuilding teams and gaining success on the back of it...
One team tbf.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, tactical breadth, strategic thinking and much understanding of back play. I'm disappointed that he hasn't got much of a grip on improving the basics yet...hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, and much understanding of back play. Hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
Dunno I've heard a few people say that he's a pretty engaging character until there's a microphone put in front of him and then the wall comes up. The presenter chappy from GBR podcast complained about it previously. Sinfield is in there for the hearts and minds stuff as well.
I can't see him going down the road of a particularly expansive team to be honest but there's not much in the way of complaints with the team he's picked for this weekend. 8/9 we know are problem areas and then it's just should George and Steward be rested.
I think some are writing him off a bit early. The games have become a bit of an endurance sport but they were under Eddie towards the end, if that could be turned around a bit I think he'd get less naysaying.
He was central to the England rebuild under Eddie Jones and worked under Eddie as forwards coach for Japan where they surprised a few people at the world cup.
I've got a lot of confidence in him as a coach, I'm just not expecting a short term miracle turnaround.
again, head coach different to forwards/technical coach.
I think he lacks charisma, leadership skills, and much understanding of back play. Hope he proves me wrong. But he can't make bricks out of straw, though his conservative selections in a couple of areas haven't helped. But he ain't got much to choose from.
Dunno I've heard a few people say that he's a pretty engaging character until there's a microphone put in front of him and then the wall comes up. The presenter chappy from GBR podcast complained about it previously. Sinfield is in there for the hearts and minds stuff as well.
I can't see him going down the road of a particularly expansive team to be honest but there's not much in the way of complaints with the team he's picked for this weekend. 8/9 we know are problem areas and then it's just should George and Steward be rested.
I think some are writing him off a bit early. The games have become a bit of an endurance sport but they were under Eddie towards the end, if that could be turned around a bit I think he'd get less naysaying.
I've heard the opposite, but both are hearsay. Not naysaying him, and hope he succeeds, just observing what's happened so far. I don't want expansive per se, just efficiency in whatever plan he picks to win- winning is all at this point. I'm not complaining overly over selection, but his scrum half selection is v conservative, we know Faz will be playing....as I said, he hasn't much to work with. But I'd expect much much better basics at this stage.
A conservative (or non-expansive) game can be effective against top opposition BUT it demands all players singing from the same hymn-sheet, hardly any mistakes and excellent discipline. None of the three requirements are even close to being met - yet. Arguably, all three areas have got worse during and since the 6N.
I thought being a leader was Borthwick’s one indisputable strength as a player? Though I don’t know how that transfers from player to coach.
It’s very hard to judge from the outside, but got the impression he was captain at both Bath and Saracens for good reason, though wasn’t quite a good enough player to make it work for England during a poor period.
The scrumhalf selection feels to me like a lack of confidence in the pack and just hoping that having a lot of experience will allow us to make the best of mostly poor possession. I really don’t understand Care’s inclusion though.
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Do we have to accept it with any question?
I'm judging what is obvious so far, whilst acknowledging that he hasn't much to work with. Progress to date on the core foundations basics thingies has been limited, and its disappointing for someone whose CV Shouts Basics.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Do we have to accept it with any question?
I'm judging what is obvious so far, whilst acknowledging that he hasn't much to work with. Progress to date on the core foundations basics thingies has been limited, and its disappointing for someone whose CV Shouts Basics.
Far from disagreeing with you Tim - I am very much one of those fickle fans - and think we have been woeful under his tenure, but I thought we were before he took over. I just have to ‘assume’ that he has a clear plan that we will soon see take shape. If not then it is ‘Go Vitality Roses’ as I immerse myself into the mysteries of netball.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
Looking at this squad of 33, it's not just him, though, is it? There are quite a few others whose best is behind them.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
Looking at this squad of 33, it's not just him, though, is it? There are quite a few others whose best is behind them.
....which highlights another problem, reluctant as you are to accept it. In fairness, you have championed a couple of likely lads...Willis T 'n' Zach.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
This x 100. England accommodates Farrell to their detriment. It’s the single most obvious flaw in any cunning plan. I used to fear England because of their depth of talent and hard nosed pragmatism. Now I feel sorry for them.
Accepting we're probably going to lose to a much better grooved in unit, even if they do rotate a bit they're in a better place with their game plan, what is the worst case scenario?
Lots of easy metres through Ford's channel is the thing I'm dreading. We know he's not a bad defender, just not dominant, but if Ake goes through him a couple of times, Farrell back in ASAP is going to be the narrative.
p/d wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:27 pm
Way too early to judge SB. As often stated we are a fickle bunch (supporters) and expect far too much from changing the name on the door.
I assume he is - rightly - working on the core foundations before deciding on light fittings. And we have to accept that, at this stage, Farrell (for example) is part of that core.
Farrell being part of the core is one of England's major problems. Things will not change until he goes. Probably the most overrated player in the history of English rugby. The media and poorly-informed fans have been singing his praises for 12 years or so, ignoring the evidence in front of their eyes.
This x 100. England accommodates Farrell to their detriment. It’s the single most obvious flaw in any cunning plan. I used to fear England because of their depth of talent and hard nosed pragmatism. Now I feel sorry for them.
Imagine being an Eng fan and having this stiletto on top of you all that time.
