Ireland vs England - 5:30pm Saturday

[morepork]

Accepting we're probably going to lose to a much better grooved in unit, even if they do rotate a bit they're in a better place with their game plan, what is the worst case scenario?

Lots of easy metres through Ford's channel is the thing I'm dreading. We know he's not a bad defender, just not dominant, but if Ake goes through him a couple of times, Farrell back in ASAP is going to be the narrative.

Get your No.6 on the case. Fuck, your main criteria for a pivot at 10 shouldn't be tackling.

[Spiffy]

Accepting we're probably going to lose to a much better grooved in unit, even if they do rotate a bit they're in a better place with their game plan, what is the worst case scenario?

Lots of easy metres through Ford's channel is the thing I'm dreading. We know he's not a bad defender, just not dominant, but if Ake goes through him a couple of times, Farrell back in ASAP is going to be the narrative.

Farrell, even when he is tackling legally, is not a dominant tackler either. Although he makes the occasional big hit, which sticks in the memory of some less-than-observant observers, he actually falls off a surprising number. Ford, though unspectacular, usually manages to get his man down, and is really not there to be a power tackler anyway.

[Banquo]

Accepting we're probably going to lose to a much better grooved in unit, even if they do rotate a bit they're in a better place with their game plan, what is the worst case scenario?

Lots of easy metres through Ford's channel is the thing I'm dreading. We know he's not a bad defender, just not dominant, but if Ake goes through him a couple of times, Farrell back in ASAP is going to be the narrative.

Farrell, even when he is tackling legally, is not a dominant tackler either. Although he makes the occasional big hit, which sticks in the memory of some less-than-observant observers, he actually falls off a surprising number. Ford, though unspectacular, usually manages to get his man down, and is really not there to be a power tackler anyway.

He's an ok but oft illegal defender in the 10 channel, and his scramble defence has always been pretty good; he's a dire defender at 12 tho. Its ridiculous that he's basically been selected over 100 times at intl level as a back (over more talented rivals) cos he puts himself about a bit, is quite physical for a 10 and works hard, and is a bit shouty in training and on the park.

[Which Tyler]

TBF, he's brilliant at adhering to the game plan - however complicated and detailed.
If the game plan says "between the central 15m channelch, between the 10m lines, on the 3rd phase after a scrum, FH grubbers, aiming for the 22m and touchline corner.
Then that's exactly what Farrell will do - and why coaches all love him.
If the plan is executed, but fails, it's a coaching problem, If the plan is changed and fails, it's a player problem. Farrell won't change things, so it's never a Farrell problem.

What he can't do, is see that in that exact situation, he's got a forward and 5 backs to his left, whilst the opponents have 1 back and 1 forward, so the ball really REALLY needs to go wide through the hands, and do that then.

We know from Saracens that he has the capacity to enact those decision - when the call comes from someone he trusts (Mostly Goode, but also Van Zyl, Malins, Daly), but we also know that he just can't see them (or at least, see them in time to enact them) for himself - eg
In the England team, who does he trust to tell him to go against the plan? Of those, who is vocal (and confident) enough to tell Captain IceMan not to do what he was intending to do?
Maybe Ford when they're selected together, otherwise... maybe Daly or Malins when they're on the pitch with him (and close enough to be heard; and [in that specific] thinking it isn't so bloody obvious that he shouldn't need to be told).

If I'm right, then he needs a SH general and a FB playmaker to tell him when to go off-script. That's not Youngs, and it certainly isn't Steward.

[p/d]

To a degree you have just described Wilko. Then you look and see who he had around him, and it makes sense why he was so effective

[Puja]

To a degree you have just described Wilko. Then you look and see who he had around him, and it makes sense why he was so effective

Not even slightly. Wilkinson was a hugely intelligent reader of the game and an excellent decision-maker in picking a pass, far closer to Ford than Farrell in terms of style.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

To a degree you have just described Wilko. Then you look and see who he had around him, and it makes sense why he was so effective

Not even slightly. Wilkinson was a hugely intelligent reader of the game and an excellent decision-maker in picking a pass, far closer to Ford than Farrell in terms of style.

Puja

And managed to stop spear tackling people directly on to their heads as the laws around it changed.

[Banquo]

TBF, he's brilliant at adhering to the game plan - however complicated and detailed.

Yep, but you'd expect that of any 10, which is why I said (in brackets) 'selected over other more talented rivals'. Ford can do this, and has, even when it clearly doesn't use his strengths; but he's not a shouty headless chicken.

[Banquo]

To a degree you have just described Wilko. Then you look and see who he had around him, and it makes sense why he was so effective

Not even slightly. Wilkinson was a hugely intelligent reader of the game and an excellent decision-maker in picking a pass, far closer to Ford than Farrell in terms of style.

Puja

he also was waaaay more skilful than Faz- brilliant passer off either hand, long or short, could kick well off either foot (inc drop goals), far longer punting range and a better goal kicker. Even taught himself to step and run a bit quicker. Was even a better tackler and defender- his similarity in hitting rucks like Faz was imo a weakness in JW's game, should have been dictating that action, not in it.

Faz isn't even a poor man's wilko, he's a poor man's Rob Andrew.

[Danno]

Oh gawd this is only 6 hours away

[Oakboy]

Oh gawd this is only 6 hours away

You (we) should be drooling in anticipation as our lot get stuck into the Irish. I yearn for a feisty 100% 80 minutes (especially right from the KO). That will do, win or lose.

[Adam_P]

Cementing his stature of not being very bright - Lawes is in the Times yesterday describing Farrell as 'maybe the best No 10 ever for England'.

[Oakboy]

Cementing his stature of not being very bright - Lawes is in the Times yesterday describing Farrell as 'maybe the best No 10 ever for England'.

Yes, I mentioned that earlier. The astonishing factor is that he seems to believe it and is by no means the only one closely connected currently. It can only be based on Farrell's so-called presence presumably. Is he the leading English FH in any single facet of skill? No. Is he the best overall package as a FH? No. Not even now, never mind looking back.

Mind you, he could improve in standing if Ford/Smith don't perform today. Unfortunately.

[FKAS]

To a degree you have just described Wilko. Then you look and see who he had around him, and it makes sense why he was so effective

Not even slightly. Wilkinson was a hugely intelligent reader of the game and an excellent decision-maker in picking a pass, far closer to Ford than Farrell in terms of style.

Puja

he also was waaaay more skilful than Faz- brilliant passer off either hand, long or short, could kick well off either foot (inc drop goals), far longer punting range and a better goal kicker. Even taught himself to step and run a bit quicker. Was even a better tackler and defender- his similarity in hitting rucks like Faz was imo a weakness in JW's game, should have been dictating that action, not in it.

Faz isn't even a poor man's wilko, he's a poor man's Rob Andrew.

Wilko's skillset is criminally underrated because his kicking game was so good it's what people have tended to focus on. That and his tackling.

We've not had a flyhalf since that's anywhere close to being as good.

[Oakboy]

As regards playing styles, it is interesting to note that SA have not employed a single box kick in the 1st half, nor lobbed up a speculative up and under!!

[Banquo]

Not even slightly. Wilkinson was a hugely intelligent reader of the game and an excellent decision-maker in picking a pass, far closer to Ford than Farrell in terms of style.

Puja

he also was waaaay more skilful than Faz- brilliant passer off either hand, long or short, could kick well off either foot (inc drop goals), far longer punting range and a better goal kicker. Even taught himself to step and run a bit quicker. Was even a better tackler and defender- his similarity in hitting rucks like Faz was imo a weakness in JW's game, should have been dictating that action, not in it.

Faz isn't even a poor man's wilko, he's a poor man's Rob Andrew.

Wilko's skillset is criminally underrated because his kicking game was so good it's what people have tended to focus on. That and his tackling.

We've not had a flyhalf since that's anywhere close to being as good.

I don’t think anyone who saw a lot of prime wilko would underrate his skills. He was almost the complete 10, a near complete player before injury. Had he had a yard more gas he’d be in the debate for best 10 ever, he’s close enough anyway.

[Banquo]

As regards playing styles, it is interesting to note that SA have not employed a single box kick in the 1st half, nor lobbed up a speculative up and under!!

Kriels try came from a scrum half box kick, and they’ve kicked more than Wales funnily enough. Actually their 9 and 10 have kicked poorly.

[Oakboy]

As regards playing styles, it is interesting to note that SA have not employed a single box kick in the 1st half, nor lobbed up a speculative up and under!!

Kriels try came from a scrum half box kick, and they’ve kicked more than Wales funnily enough. Actually their 9 and 10 have kicked poorly.

It's almost like kicks to touch have come back into fashion. Apart from them, a few kick passes and through grubbers seem fine.

[Banquo]

SA look very scary even when not playing well- put two good half backs in..,,they’ll be even better. Kriel is a great player still

[Mr Mwenda]

SA look very scary even when not playing well- put two good half backs in..,,they’ll be even better. Kriel is a great player still

I am concerned this is a preview of the England game. Fearing there'll be shades of the croke park game....

[Oakboy]

SA look very scary even when not playing well- put two good half backs in..,,they’ll be even better. Kriel is a great player still

Two single-handed interceptions lead to breakaway tries. Yellow cards if the ball had not stuck?

[badback]

I’m actually think all things considered they will play much better. It’s a good team on paper. And they have a lot of motivation going in.

[Insouciant]

TBF, he's brilliant at adhering to the game plan - however complicated and detailed.
If the game plan says "between the central 15m channelch, between the 10m lines, on the 3rd phase after a scrum, FH grubbers, aiming for the 22m and touchline corner.
Then that's exactly what Farrell will do - and why coaches all love him.
If the plan is executed, but fails, it's a coaching problem, If the plan is changed and fails, it's a player problem. Farrell won't change things, so it's never a Farrell problem.

What he can't do, is see that in that exact situation, he's got a forward and 5 backs to his left, whilst the opponents have 1 back and 1 forward, so the ball really REALLY needs to go wide through the hands, and do that then.

We know from Saracens that he has the capacity to enact those decision - when the call comes from someone he trusts (Mostly Goode, but also Van Zyl, Malins, Daly), but we also know that he just can't see them (or at least, see them in time to enact them) for himself - eg
In the England team, who does he trust to tell him to go against the plan? Of those, who is vocal (and confident) enough to tell Captain IceMan not to do what he was intending to do?
Maybe Ford when they're selected together, otherwise... maybe Daly or Malins when they're on the pitch with him (and close enough to be heard; and [in that specific] thinking it isn't so bloody obvious that he shouldn't need to be told).

If I'm right, then he needs a SH general and a FB playmaker to tell him when to go off-script. That's not Youngs, and it certainly isn't Steward.

Rightly or wrongly, this particular example is what pops in to my head when I think of Farrell playing for England. Massive overlap, some decent pace outside him (including a pre-injury May) and he uses none of them. Nice (!)

I don't think he's a bad rugby player but his flaws have been glossed over for a long time in the media at least. He had the 'Iceman' moniker despite actually missing a fair few kicks, his defence was much talked up but he actually misses quite a few tackles. One big hit (legal hopefully) doesn't make up for that.

I'm guessing we're about to see a Wales v SA -esque scoreline. Fingers crossed though.

[Banquo]

SA look very scary even when not playing well- put two good half backs in..,,they’ll be even better. Kriel is a great player still

Two single-handed interceptions lead to breakaway tries. Yellow cards if the ball had not stuck?

If my uncle had wheels he’d be a bike

And seriously no, they were legit attempts to secure the ball as evidenced by their success;)

[Banquo]

TBF, he's brilliant at adhering to the game plan - however complicated and detailed.
If the game plan says "between the central 15m channelch, between the 10m lines, on the 3rd phase after a scrum, FH grubbers, aiming for the 22m and touchline corner.
Then that's exactly what Farrell will do - and why coaches all love him.
If the plan is executed, but fails, it's a coaching problem, If the plan is changed and fails, it's a player problem. Farrell won't change things, so it's never a Farrell problem.

What he can't do, is see that in that exact situation, he's got a forward and 5 backs to his left, whilst the opponents have 1 back and 1 forward, so the ball really REALLY needs to go wide through the hands, and do that then.

We know from Saracens that he has the capacity to enact those decision - when the call comes from someone he trusts (Mostly Goode, but also Van Zyl, Malins, Daly), but we also know that he just can't see them (or at least, see them in time to enact them) for himself - eg
In the England team, who does he trust to tell him to go against the plan? Of those, who is vocal (and confident) enough to tell Captain IceMan not to do what he was intending to do?
Maybe Ford when they're selected together, otherwise... maybe Daly or Malins when they're on the pitch with him (and close enough to be heard; and [in that specific] thinking it isn't so bloody obvious that he shouldn't need to be told).

If I'm right, then he needs a SH general and a FB playmaker to tell him when to go off-script. That's not Youngs, and it certainly isn't Steward.

Rightly or wrongly, this particular example is what pops in to my head when I think of Farrell playing for England. Massive overlap, some decent pace outside him (including a pre-injury May) and he uses none of them. Nice (!)

I don't think he's a bad rugby player but his flaws have been glossed over for a long time in the media at least. He had the 'Iceman' moniker despite actually missing a fair few kicks, his defence was much talked up but he actually misses quite a few tackles. One big hit (legal hopefully) doesn't make up for that.

I'm guessing we're about to see a Wales v SA -esque scoreline. Fingers crossed though.

He’s a very good club player, no question. Whether he would be at a less dominant side.. is moot, and he is an integral part in any case.