Rebuilding

[Sandydragon]

I don't know why this has never really been dealt with. Top fitness isn't something reserved for world cups, it needs to be maintained. Is this a cultural thing? Other than some self-driven individuals do the others really need a boot camp to force them to keep this level up?

The new WRU management has to bring in a cross-regional fitness program. But will the regions cooperate?

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

Clearly Gatland has been unable to fix this by himself in the past. Other than the change in WRU management I don't know what else is likely to bring progress. Which is crazy because surely it's obvious that it's best for everyone if we're all on the same page.

However, assuming there'll be no better cooperation/coordination than in the past, Gatland needs to force things from his side ie tell the players what is expected from them fitness-wise - monitor it over time, and if they don't make it they don't get selected. If they want to be in the squad for the new RWC cycle, they know what they have to do.

In my opinion, it’s been self evident for years that we have to employ a more centralised model. We don’t have the resource pool to copy England or France, so we need to explore the options that other smaller but successful nations like Ireland and New Zealand can show us. Instead we’ve had years of tribalism and civil war. When you consider what we have achieved without a strong domestic base over the past decade, it makes you wonder what could have been if our ducks had firmly been aligned.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

Clearly Gatland has been unable to fix this by himself in the past. Other than the change in WRU management I don't know what else is likely to bring progress. Which is crazy because surely it's obvious that it's best for everyone if we're all on the same page.

However, assuming there'll be no better cooperation/coordination than in the past, Gatland needs to force things from his side ie tell the players what is expected from them fitness-wise - monitor it over time, and if they don't make it they don't get selected. If they want to be in the squad for the new RWC cycle, they know what they have to do.

In my opinion, it’s been self evident for years that we have to employ a more centralised model. We don’t have the resource pool to copy England or France, so we need to explore the options that other smaller but successful nations like Ireland and New Zealand can show us. Instead we’ve had years of tribalism and civil war. When you consider what we have achieved without a strong domestic base over the past decade, it makes you wonder what could have been if our ducks had firmly been aligned.

Just look across the Irish Sea.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Funnily enough, Pivac suggested a lack of fitness when the players come into the Wales camp last year.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... h-25487417

I'm sure I read a scathing response from the regions, but havent found that.

It got me thinking whether, if true, the players coming into camp from English or French clubs have better fitness initially than their regional team mates.

Clearly Gatland has been unable to fix this by himself in the past. Other than the change in WRU management I don't know what else is likely to bring progress. Which is crazy because surely it's obvious that it's best for everyone if we're all on the same page.

However, assuming there'll be no better cooperation/coordination than in the past, Gatland needs to force things from his side ie tell the players what is expected from them fitness-wise - monitor it over time, and if they don't make it they don't get selected. If they want to be in the squad for the new RWC cycle, they know what they have to do.

In my opinion, it’s been self evident for years that we have to employ a more centralised model. We don’t have the resource pool to copy England or France, so we need to explore the options that other smaller but successful nations like Ireland and New Zealand can show us. Instead we’ve had years of tribalism and civil war. When you consider what we have achieved without a strong domestic base over the past decade, it makes you wonder what could have been if our ducks had firmly been aligned.

But it still amazes me that more cooperation doesn't happen. Why doesn't, say Toby Booth get his assistant coaches to talk to their national counterparts to see how they can work together better? Or, heaven forbid, to actually learn something? But this has always been the way. I used to wonder why Lyn Jones didn't try to duplicate Gatland's Wales, when Wales was mostly Ospreys anyway. Still don't get it.

[pompey-zebra]

Clearly Gatland has been unable to fix this by himself in the past. Other than the change in WRU management I don't know what else is likely to bring progress. Which is crazy because surely it's obvious that it's best for everyone if we're all on the same page.

However, assuming there'll be no better cooperation/coordination than in the past, Gatland needs to force things from his side ie tell the players what is expected from them fitness-wise - monitor it over time, and if they don't make it they don't get selected. If they want to be in the squad for the new RWC cycle, they know what they have to do.

In my opinion, it’s been self evident for years that we have to employ a more centralised model. We don’t have the resource pool to copy England or France, so we need to explore the options that other smaller but successful nations like Ireland and New Zealand can show us. Instead we’ve had years of tribalism and civil war. When you consider what we have achieved without a strong domestic base over the past decade, it makes you wonder what could have been if our ducks had firmly been aligned.

But it still amazes me that more cooperation doesn't happen. Why doesn't, say Toby Booth get his assistant coaches to talk to their national counterparts to see how they can work together better? Or, heaven forbid, to actually learn something? But this has always been the way. I used to wonder why Lyn Jones didn't try to duplicate Gatland's Wales, when Wales was mostly Ospreys anyway. Still don't get it.

I know, you would have thought that there would have been a way for all parties to work together for the benefit of all, but it's not been apparent so far.

[pompey-zebra]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Hasnt Collins played FB for the Ospreys too? Granted he must be 30-odd now but could be another short- medium term option.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Hasnt Collins played FB for the Ospreys too? Granted he must be 30-odd now but could be another short- medium term option.

He could play almost anywhere in the backs but not at the Ospreys any more. Don't know where he's gone.

[pompey-zebra]

Thanks for that, didnt realise Collins had left the Ospreys. Mind you so many have left or changed from one region too another there's probably more I've missed.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Scarlet also have Tom Rogers (24) listed as a winger but I think he's a possible full back too.

[Sandydragon]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Scarlet also have Tom Rogers (24) listed as a winger but I think he's a possible full back too.

Rogers has a fair bit of potential in my opinion. A bit more depth for the back 3.

[Numbers]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Scarlet also have Tom Rogers (24) listed as a winger but I think he's a possible full back too.

Max Nagy can be added to that list as well, he's a unit 6'4" and 18 stone.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Welsh full backs in Wales:

Ospreys: Iestyn Hopkins 21, Mat Protheroe 27
Scarlets: Ioan Nicholas 25, Johnny McNichol 33
Cardiff: Matthew Morgan 31, Ben Thomas 24
Dragons: Cai Evans 24, Angus O'Brien 29, Jordan Williams 30

A lot of them are a bit old. Protheroe's defence a weakness. Cai Evans could do the job I guess. O'Brien would be the safest pair of hands but the ship has maybe (unfairly) sailed. Nicholas is good for a regional player, can he step up? I don't know Hopkins. I don't know how good Thomas is at FB.

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Scarlet also have Tom Rogers (24) listed as a winger but I think he's a possible full back too.

Max Nagy can be added to that list as well, he's a unit 6'4" and 18 stone.

Very promising if he can be persuaded to play for Wales.

[MrK]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

[Son of Mathonwy]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

Ratti's another 6/8 option.

Behind Costelow (and perhaps in the medium term, O Williams), there are a range if options without much to distinguish them. Hopefully the next few months will allow some to show their quality. (NB the Scarlets have Lloyd as a fly-half . . . although it remains to be seen if he'll suffer for his versatility . . . with Costelow and Jones as more dedicated fly-halves, there is a big danger of this).

Similarly for the full backs, hopefully a newcomer or two will begin to stand out in the regions. Now is the time to seize that spot.

[Numbers]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

Ratti's another 6/8 option.

Behind Costelow (and perhaps in the medium term, O Williams), there are a range if options without much to distinguish them. Hopefully the next few months will allow some to show their quality. (NB the Scarlets have Lloyd as a fly-half . . . although it remains to be seen if he'll suffer for his versatility . . . with Costelow and Jones as more dedicated fly-halves, there is a big danger of this).

Similarly for the full backs, hopefully a newcomer or two will begin to stand out in the regions. Now is the time to seize that spot.

I can't remember him playing 10 for Bristol at all so not a good choice if he hasn't played high grade rugby there due to the lack of time the higher in level you go, Sheedy is a better option currently.

[Sandydragon]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

Ratti's another 6/8 option.

Behind Costelow (and perhaps in the medium term, O Williams), there are a range if options without much to distinguish them. Hopefully the next few months will allow some to show their quality. (NB the Scarlets have Lloyd as a fly-half . . . although it remains to be seen if he'll suffer for his versatility . . . with Costelow and Jones as more dedicated fly-halves, there is a big danger of this).

Similarly for the full backs, hopefully a newcomer or two will begin to stand out in the regions. Now is the time to seize that spot.

I keep hoping Harri Keddie will break through, but sadly I don’t think it’s going to happen.

You never know, Regan Grace might stay fit and prove to be another wing option.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

Ratti's another 6/8 option.

Behind Costelow (and perhaps in the medium term, O Williams), there are a range if options without much to distinguish them. Hopefully the next few months will allow some to show their quality. (NB the Scarlets have Lloyd as a fly-half . . . although it remains to be seen if he'll suffer for his versatility . . . with Costelow and Jones as more dedicated fly-halves, there is a big danger of this).

Similarly for the full backs, hopefully a newcomer or two will begin to stand out in the regions. Now is the time to seize that spot.

I keep hoping Harri Keddie will break through, but sadly I don’t think it’s going to happen.

You never know, Regan Grace might stay fit and prove to be another wing option.

I suspect that Keddie would need (or more likely, would have needed) to move to another region to get noticed.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The future..........maybe

LH Props
Domachowski, Carre, Matthias, G Phillips
TH Props
Assirratti, Davies- king, O'Connor, Brown
Hookers
Lake. Elias, Daniels, Roberts
2nd row
Jenkins, Beard, Carter, R Davies, Tshiunza, T Williams
I still think Seb can do a gob here but history is not on my side, there are 2 youngsters at Scarlets too Price and Hones who are slowly getting good experienc
Back row
6 SLH, Plumtree, Botham
7 Morgan, Reffell, Basham
8 Wainwright, Morris
Tuipolotu may have a breakthrough year with Scarelts and we arent blessed with "big 8s"

SH
Williams, Hardy, Blacker
FH
Costelow,
Dan Edwards is a fast track option,
Centres
Grady Llewellyn J Roberts J Williams K Williams
Where will Scarlets play I Llloyd, hes listed as a centre
Back three
LRZ, Adams, Dyer, Evans, Rogers
Cabango and I Hopikins potentially

Ratti's another 6/8 option.

Behind Costelow (and perhaps in the medium term, O Williams), there are a range if options without much to distinguish them. Hopefully the next few months will allow some to show their quality. (NB the Scarlets have Lloyd as a fly-half . . . although it remains to be seen if he'll suffer for his versatility . . . with Costelow and Jones as more dedicated fly-halves, there is a big danger of this).

Similarly for the full backs, hopefully a newcomer or two will begin to stand out in the regions. Now is the time to seize that spot.

I can't remember him playing 10 for Bristol at all so not a good choice if he hasn't played high grade rugby there due to the lack of time the higher in level you go, Sheedy is a better option currently.

I haven't seen Sheedy playing for a long time but you may well be right. But is he currently eligible for Wales?

[Sandydragon]

Sheedy should still be available, barring injury. I don’t think he has been offered a Welsh contract so the 25 cap rule needn’t apply.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Sheedy should still be available, barring injury. I don’t think he has been offered a Welsh contract so the 25 cap rule needn’t apply.

That would be my guess too.

[Sourdust]

There's also Max Nagy (24 per Wikipedia, 27 per the Ospreys? My guess is 24) at the Ospreys. He's English but has been playing in Wales for 4 years, was at Swansea Uni before that, so probably WQ if he's interested. I'd look closely if I were Gatland.

Nagy is a weird one, he can look the business one game and nowhere the next. He's a big lump and good in the air - a bit of a Freddie Steward, perhaps slightly more tilted towards running threat and away from defensive solidity, but still definitely on the latter part of the scale. I'd expect him to be on Gatland's radar somewhere.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Things have not exactly gone well since this thread was last looked at. The only positive is the emergence of Lloyd as our in-form 10. Feyi-Waboso has appeared and then buggered off to England. So many injuries. And LRZ . . . I just can't talk about it.

[Sandydragon]

Things have not exactly gone well since this thread was last looked at. The only positive is the emergence of Lloyd as our in-form 10. Feyi-Waboso has appeared and then buggered off to England. So many injuries. And LRZ . . . I just can't talk about it.

I know. It’s like some angry deity has said “you think last season was bad, I’ll make it so much worse!”

And to make it worse, the Fail will run umpteen LRZ stories just to remind us what we have lost.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Things have not exactly gone well since this thread was last looked at. The only positive is the emergence of Lloyd as our in-form 10. Feyi-Waboso has appeared and then buggered off to England. So many injuries. And LRZ . . . I just can't talk about it.

I know. It’s like some angry deity has said “you think last season was bad, I’ll make it so much worse!”

And to make it worse, the Fail will run umpteen LRZ stories just to remind us what we have lost.

Yep, I'm looking forward to a day-by-day account of his 10 weeks of NFL training. It'll make a nice counterpoint to our 6N campaign.

[Buggaluggs]

I know LRZ is fast, but I didn't realize he was faster than Tyreek Hill. In boots. Still, I think 15% of making it is about right. It would be nice to have him back before the next RWC.

It will be an interesting transition to new faces. And probably a lumpy ride for a while.

[Sandydragon]

Things have not exactly gone well since this thread was last looked at. The only positive is the emergence of Lloyd as our in-form 10. Feyi-Waboso has appeared and then buggered off to England. So many injuries. And LRZ . . . I just can't talk about it.

I know. It’s like some angry deity has said “you think last season was bad, I’ll make it so much worse!”

And to make it worse, the Fail will run umpteen LRZ stories just to remind us what we have lost.

Yep, I'm looking forward to a day-by-day account of his 10 weeks of NFL training. It'll make a nice counterpoint to our 6N campaign.

I feel bad writing this, but hopefully he isn’t an instant superstar and we get him back. I know that selfish but the last time I checked NFL isn’t as screwed as we are.