New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Danno]

But, in Dombrandt's case, was a whole 6N not a reasonable chance to the extent that it is someone else's turn for a similar run of games? There are only so many international games.

not really, we were gash.

Dombrant being one of the chief gash players through. Dude has 15 caps and hasn't shown the relentless work rate or ability to break the line that you'd expect from an international number 8. He's a clever and skillful player but on prior performances hasn't shown he can bring his club performances to the international stage.

Eh? He got stuck in on the nuts and bolts and did very well, he popped uo with the ball from several defensive breqkdowns

His principle issue was that he couldn't catch a cold, let alone a ball

[Stom]

Yeah, I'm not so sure you can say Dombrandt was a 'complete and utter failure'... it didn't come off, but a lot of that was that England so obviously wanted to play in a way that did not suit him in the slightest. And so when he did get opportunities to play like he wanted and didn't take them...he got slated.

But he did make impact.

And the idea that Dombrandt is lazy is incredible considering his numbers. The guy hits breakdowns, carries, and wins turnovers. He is economical in his movement so he can last longer.

It's like all the football fans calling Berbatov lazy, when he was simply incredible and economical.

Dombrandt is already like latter career Nick Easter. He's bypassed the years of laziness in a season and a half, pretty much. You really think Quins would make him captain if he was lazy?

[Scrumhead]

Moreover, I think he gets better every season. Even if he doesn’t get an immediate recall, it would be very short sighted to dismiss his test prospects based purely on an underwhelming (not bad) set of games in a poor England side.

[Banquo]

in a poor England side.

well yes...see earlier and other players

[Oakboy]

Should SB give Dombrandt another 5 games in the 6N or try someone else - that's the question? Now the short-term RWC considerations are over, I can't believe BV will not be discarded. He should be.

I'd definitely look at others but I would be open to Dombrandt getting another go if the likes of Barbeary, T Willis and Mercer can't step up. Earl has a case too, though I'd guess that SB would prefer him as a flanker.

SB's job, obviously, is to find out who is best. He is lucky in having five genuine candidates for the 8 shirt.

[Stom]

in a poor England side.

well yes...see earlier and other players

I think at this point we're all just ganging up on Slavishly Boring's moutpiece as he makes baseless and venomous attacks against a young man who deserves better.

Seriously, though, I don't get why Dommers gets the venom he gets from the sources he gets them.

It's like the anti-Ford: I'd expect people to appreciate the impact he has on games. And he definitely does have impact. It really does depend what you want from your 8. Dommers is never going to be that guy who trucks it up, and I think England have forgotten how to cope with an 8 who plays slightly wider and picks and chooses his moments. Dayglo didn't work harder than Dombrandt does.

But I also agree that we might think about giving chances to others.

I just remember watching the Quins Glos game, and both 8s really stood out. But it was Dombrandt who had the bigger impact. That could simply be because he's been part of this system for a long time and understands all the moving parts better than Mercer does, but I do feel like those two should be 1&2 in the pecking order right now, on form shown over an extended period.

Which way round, I don't really mind.

And if one of them misses out to give Barbeary a chance...I would have no complaints whatsoever.

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe my recollection is off, because the way I remember it his USP in attack was the thing that really didn’t click.

He has fantastic hands, runnings lines and sense of timing for hitting a pass, but all of these things seemed to abandon him in his recent England games. His timing on to the ball just never seemed to be quite right, but it’s hard to say what combination of setup, communication or individual error that came down to.

It reminded me a bit of Slade who looked one of the most skillful players in the premiership then spent his first 20 caps just dropping the ball.

Dombrandt was still getting over the ball and contributing elsewhere but a few duff carries and the slagging for missing Van Der Merwe (personally I think he had to go high and target the ball after 6 other players had missed him but whatever) really added to the feeling he couldn’t translate his game to the top level. There were times he definitely looked a bit lost and short of confidence in what he was doing.

What I would have liked is give Willis the starting 8 shirt for a few games and let Dombrandt/Mercer fight to show their unique attacking skills off the bench. Maybe Mercer can show the same power and relentlessness in contact as Willis now but I’m unsure. I think Barbeary can, I just don’t know if he’s still a one trick pony in that regard.

So I think Dombrandt did fail to really grab his chance, but with some mitigation. Vunipola’s appearances gave some much needed perspective on what a truly poor performance looks like.

[fivepointer]

Fisilau is the one. Mark my words.....

[Puja]

in a poor England side.

well yes...see earlier and other players

I think at this point we're all just ganging up on Slavishly Boring's moutpiece as he makes baseless and venomous attacks against a young man who deserves better.

Seriously, though, I don't get why Dommers gets the venom he gets from the sources he gets them.

It's like the anti-Ford: I'd expect people to appreciate the impact he has on games. And he definitely does have impact. It really does depend what you want from your 8. Dommers is never going to be that guy who trucks it up, and I think England have forgotten how to cope with an 8 who plays slightly wider and picks and chooses his moments. Dayglo didn't work harder than Dombrandt does.

But I also agree that we might think about giving chances to others.

I just remember watching the Quins Glos game, and both 8s really stood out. But it was Dombrandt who had the bigger impact. That could simply be because he's been part of this system for a long time and understands all the moving parts better than Mercer does, but I do feel like those two should be 1&2 in the pecking order right now, on form shown over an extended period.

Which way round, I don't really mind.

And if one of them misses out to give Barbeary a chance...I would have no complaints whatsoever.

The thing that I don't like about Dombrandt is how often he goes missing in high-level games. You talk about his impact, which is considerable against the likes of Gloucester where the tackles are loose and the running is easy, but minimal when I watched him against Saracens and Sale last year. Appears to me to be a player who's great at a lower level, but can't keep that impact in the tougher games, and that's been backed up by his lacklustre international form. A rugby Mark Ramprakash, if you will.

As such, it'd take a *lot* of domestic form, against the very best, for me to be keen on him getting another shot.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

Also, Earl looked a better 8 than Dombrandt, who I would love to come good. Maybe the team could be organised to use Dombrandt's strengths better, but the same could be said of any player.

[Mellsblue]

The hate for Dombo is the same thinking that leads to Farrell > Ford/Smith and Steward being world class because he’s a tall Mike Brown minus the ability to consistently beat the first tackler.

[Which Tyler]

Is there any actual hate/dislike of Dombrandt?
Or is it that different people have different personal favourites, and Dombrandt didn't take his chances by the scruff of the neck and demand continued selection?

For myself, it's certainly the latter. I've always championed Mercer (I always think it's the mark of a really good player when fans of the club they've left continue to push for their selection).
I have to agree with Mikey's view that Dombrandt's caps so far are reminiscent of Slade's early caps - a really good and skilful club player, trying all the things they're used to trying, but just failing at international level.
Unlike Slade, we've lots of options who are also demanding their chance at 10-15 caps to show their worth. I'd pick Mercer, but I'd have no complaints if it's TWillis, Fisilau, Barbeary, or making Earl an 8-who-covers rather than a 7-who-covers. Equally, I've no complaints if it's Dombrandt, I just feel that it's someone else's turn.

For a good while, I disliked the selections of Farrell and Youngs (amongst others) because I disliked what I saw of them on the pitch, didn't like the way they (well, OF) plays the game, disliked their skillset and sub-par (IMO) core skills for their position.
I have no such reservations of Dombrandt (or Slade, as his name has come up) - I think they just take/took a long time to get up to speed with / cope with the pressure of, international rugby.

[Puja]

The hate for Dombo is the same thinking that leads to Farrell > Ford/Smith and Steward being world class because he’s a tall Mike Brown minus the ability to consistently beat the first tackler.

Bold take. Elaborate for me?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The hate for Dombo is the same thinking that leads to Farrell > Ford/Smith and Steward being world class because he’s a tall Mike Brown minus the ability to consistently beat the first tackler.

Bold take. Elaborate for me?

Puja

He dares to try things and sometimes it doesn’t come off. I’m not saying he’s in Ford’s or Smith’s class - he’s def not, imo - but because he over runs a ball at pace, rather than plodding in to the nearest tackler, or tries an offload that doesn’t come off, rather than plodding in to the nearest tackler, he gets maligned.

[Mellsblue]

Is there any actual hate/dislike of Dombrandt?
Or is it that different people have different personal favourites, and Dombrandt didn't take his chances by the scruff of the neck and demand continued selection?

For myself, it's certainly the latter. I've always championed Mercer (I always think it's the mark of a really good player when fans of the club they've left continue to push for their selection).
I have to agree with Mikey's view that Dombrandt's caps so far are reminiscent of Slade's early caps - a really good and skilful club player, trying all the things they're used to trying, but just failing at international level.
Unlike Slade, we've lots of options who are also demanding their chance at 10-15 caps to show their worth. I'd pick Mercer, but I'd have no complaints if it's TWillis, Fisilau, Barbeary, or making Earl an 8-who-covers rather than a 7-who-covers. Equally, I've no complaints if it's Dombrandt, I just feel that it's someone else's turn.

For a good while, I disliked the selections of Farrell and Youngs (amongst others) because I disliked what I saw of them on the pitch, didn't like the way they (well, OF) plays the game, disliked their skillset and sub-par (IMO) core skills for their position.
I have no such reservations of Dombrandt (or Slade, as his name has come up) - I think they just take/took a long time to get up to speed with / cope with the pressure of, international rugby.

You’re taking the word ‘hate’ literally when it (obviously) wasn’t intended that way.

[Which Tyler]

A] I removed hyperbole to make it "hate/dislike"
B] How should I take it?
C] If I'm wrong that the word hate is being used to demonstrate an active disliking, then why wasn't an accurate word used?

[Mellsblue]

A] I removed hyperbole to make it "hate/dislike"
B] How should I take it?
C] If I'm wrong that the word hate is being used to demonstrate an active disliking, then why wasn't an accurate word used?

Take it that I think people believe he isn’t up to it because he plays in an attacking fashion and therefore makes mistakes, as was plainly obvious from the post.

[Mikey Brown]

The hate for Dombo is the same thinking that leads to Farrell > Ford/Smith and Steward being world class because he’s a tall Mike Brown minus the ability to consistently beat the first tackler.

Bold take. Elaborate for me?

Puja

He dares to try things and sometimes it doesn’t come off. I’m not saying he’s in Ford’s or Smith’s class - he’s def not, imo - but because he over runs a ball at pace, rather than plodding in to the nearest tackler, or tries an offload that doesn’t come off, rather than plodding in to the nearest tackler, he gets maligned.

This is part of the frustration for me too. Obviously I’m massively biased, and England will never (nor should they) play like Quins, but a lot of the reactions seem to come from this mindset that international rugby must always be about grinding away in the tight regardless of what players you have available to you.

Slightly better communication or a quicker pass from 9 and Dombrandt has made a dozen linebreaks for England. But things like trying for clean breaks through the line are almost dismissed as flashy bullshit because SA or France might beat us up.

Though I guess we saw Earl make a handful of them and the rest of the team were left 20 metres in complete bemusement.

[Which Tyler]

Take it that I think people believe he isn’t up to it because he plays in an attacking fashion and therefore makes mistakes, as was plainly obvious from the post.

Ah, okay - 100% my fault for thinking the word meant something at least vaguely approximating its meaning.
It was so obvious that no-one could possibly fail to mis-understand, as can be shown by the fact that nobody at all mis-understood.

So how do you marry that "hatred" with people so frequently championing someone who plays in an even more attacking fashion? like Earl or Mercer (or Simmonds)?

I would 100% challenge your assertion that people think he's not up to international rugby because he plays in a certain way, and rather that, so far, he's played international rugby, and hasn't looked comfortable.

[Oakboy]

I would 100% challenge your assertion that people think he's not up to international rugby because he plays in a certain way, and rather that, so far, he's played international rugby, and hasn't looked comfortable.

This!!! He was given a whole 6N to show international No 8 potential. If he can only play in Quins' fashion he is obviously unsuited to the international game. I don't think that is the case but either way he did not impress. Yes, the team was crap but he hardly looked a shining light amongst poorer colleagues. He looked out of his depth, IMO. That still does not mean he is written off but it does make it sensible and reasonable to try others before trying him again.

[Stom]

Is there any actual hate/dislike of Dombrandt?
Or is it that different people have different personal favourites, and Dombrandt didn't take his chances by the scruff of the neck and demand continued selection?

From FKAS, yes, there is.

It's not like Dombrandt shat the bed or anything in the 6N. He just didn't hit heights. As Mikey said, we then got to compare it to someone who really did shit the bed in Vunipola.

Pretty much everyone else on the board seems to be in agreement that he didn't take his chance, and maybe we should look at some other options.

It's just that of those options, only Mercer and Barbeary are actually fit...and those two have both been injured. Plus it's very early for the latter.

So I don't get the point in talking about random outsiders when the obvious picks at 8 for England RIGHT NOW are Mercer and Dombrandt.

Oh, and on the big game accusation, he was excellent against Racing. He didn't stand out as much as Smith or (and this is something I wouldn't have dreamed I'd ever be saying) Dino Lamb, but he was still very good against a top tier team.

[Mr Mwenda]

Perhaps we need to go back to the old match threads. My memory was Dombrandt dropping the ball.

[FKAS]

Is there any actual hate/dislike of Dombrandt?
Or is it that different people have different personal favourites, and Dombrandt didn't take his chances by the scruff of the neck and demand continued selection?

From FKAS, yes, there is.

I actually quite like Dombrant and wanted him to succeed but he didn't. At international level you either need to be making metres or be carrying relentlessly (every other phase) if you are going to be in at 8 and Dombrant offered neither. He may well come back and force another chance due to good club form but he also can't be surprised if other options are chosen instead of him.

[Epaminondas Pules]

My thing with Dombrandt, and I've been as vocal as anyone, is frustration. All of the components for a superb test player are there in his locker. I do think he's getting better and better. He's much more involved consistently throughout the game now for Quins, whereas he had, in my opinion, a habit of drifting in and out of games. When he got involved it was usually a superb intervention, with or without the ball. I'm definitely seeing more workrate from him, which is fab. It is tough, because he's had a number of caps, in a pretty turgid side, and not so far been able to replicate those club interventions. Snippets, but not raised his game on that stage. I wouldn't discount him by any stretch, and he'd be in my thoughts for the squad, as would Mercer, Barbeary and Willis, with an eye on Fisilau and CCS to expose to the top level to show them what the next step looks like. They might do a George Martin and grow into that potential more quickly, they might not.

[Stom]

My thing with Dombrandt, and I've been as vocal as anyone, is frustration. All of the components for a superb test player are there in his locker. I do think he's getting better and better. He's much more involved consistently throughout the game now for Quins, whereas he had, in my opinion, a habit of drifting in and out of games. When he got involved it was usually a superb intervention, with or without the ball. I'm definitely seeing more workrate from him, which is fab. It is tough, because he's had a number of caps, in a pretty turgid side, and not so far been able to replicate those club interventions. Snippets, but not raised his game on that stage. I wouldn't discount him by any stretch, and he'd be in my thoughts for the squad, as would Mercer, Barbeary and Willis, with an eye on Fisilau and CCS to expose to the top level to show them what the next step looks like. They might do a George Martin and grow into that potential more quickly, they might not.

I tend to agree with that.

The speed of his improvements, though, is very good, imo. You have to remember how 'late' he was to pro rugby. There's definitely more than a passing comparison to be made with Nick Easter...

I feel like he has a lot more to give in an white shirt, and that given a chance he can show that.

BUT

Is that what this England team needs right now?

And if not, what happens when this England team DOES need that? Will a player with a lower ceiling have taken the shirt and the English ideal of not looking for marginal gains - see football's great current example at Arsenal - mean Dombrandt then doesn't get a look in?

But, tbf, we have Willis who fits that role...and then everyone else has similar 'issues' to Dommers, but are slightly different.

I think our 8s going forward are potentially really exciting.

But I would back them now. Might need a little rejig in the pack, but go for it. No Lawes may actually help there, as he wasn't a great tight carrier, and whoever replaces him will be an upgrade on that part of the game.

Could really do with a real powerhouse 6...