gaza conflict

[Son of Mathonwy]

(I know this has been out for months but) it seems that stories of the worst things that Hamas did on 7th October 2023 were completely fabricated by Israel in order to dehumanise the Palestinians, and naturally they were all eagerly swallowed and repeated by the US and UK and the media. The discovery that they were in fact lies remains ignored by the mainstream press.

[morepork]

Half expecting Tony Blair to swoop in like the corporate Angel of Death and make a quick buck. How blatantly can a people be shat on?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Labour suspend 30 out of 350 arms licenses to Israel. Better than nothing. Is it enough? Impossible to judge without seeing the detail but it sounds like the bare minimum they felt they needed to defuse problems at the party conference.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... ter-review

[paddy no 11]

Into lebannon again, ground invasion on the way

[Son of Mathonwy]

Into lebannon again, ground invasion on the way

The US could stop it at any time, since they're supplying most of the weapons for it. Therefore they either want it to happen or they're indifferent. As the only superpower it would seem strange for them to let Israel make such big decisions for it, so it's safer to assume they want it to happen. Essentially the US is using Israel to wreck the Middle East ie create mass destruction and death in enemy Muslim countries, presumably for such ends as domination of an oil rich region, weakening Iran, to counter Russia's influence, whatever's trending in the CIA at this time.

[Puja]

Into lebannon again, ground invasion on the way

The US could stop it at any time, since they're supplying most of the weapons for it. Therefore they either want it to happen or they're indifferent. As the only superpower it would seem strange for them to let Israel make such big decisions for it, so it's safer to assume they want it to happen. Essentially the US is using Israel to wreck the Middle East ie create mass destruction and death in enemy Muslim countries, presumably for such ends as domination of an oil rich region, weakening Iran, to counter Russia's influence, whatever's trending in the CIA at this time.

Bold to assume that the US government has any control here. They may technically have the absolute power to call Israel to heel, but in doing so would guarantee a Republican landslide. Nevermind Trump's braying to the Christian nationalists and fanatics that would follow, just look at the special interest groups and PACS that targetted the reelection campaigns of pro-Palestinian Democratic Senators and destroyed them with funding their opponents, then scale that up nationally.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Into lebannon again, ground invasion on the way

The US could stop it at any time, since they're supplying most of the weapons for it. Therefore they either want it to happen or they're indifferent. As the only superpower it would seem strange for them to let Israel make such big decisions for it, so it's safer to assume they want it to happen. Essentially the US is using Israel to wreck the Middle East ie create mass destruction and death in enemy Muslim countries, presumably for such ends as domination of an oil rich region, weakening Iran, to counter Russia's influence, whatever's trending in the CIA at this time.

Bold to assume that the US government has any control here. They may technically have the absolute power to call Israel to heel, but in doing so would guarantee a Republican landslide. Nevermind Trump's braying to the Christian nationalists and fanatics that would follow, just look at the special interest groups and PACS that targetted the reelection campaigns of pro-Palestinian Democratic Senators and destroyed them with funding their opponents, then scale that up nationally.

Puja

The US government absolutely has control here. They choose not to exercise the power they have.

If you give a country billions of dollars worth of weapons habitually, massively increase this in response to that country's use of those weapons then it's reasonable to assume you approve of what that country's doing with them.

I appreciate that today would not be the optimal day for Biden to develop a conscience. It would have been better to have taken an ethically and legally defensible position much earlier. But we are talking about total hypotheticals anyway...

I disagree that opposing Israel's actions at this time would cause a Republican victory , let alone a landslide. Just because an action seems inconceivable does not mean the sky would fall on our heads. Opposing Israel's actions could easily be framed as opposing Netanyahu, effectively about saving Israel from a dangerous man who would drag it into war. He could (again, inconceivable) call the pager attacks what they are, a massive terrorist act, and say that Israel has an out-of-control leader. You may think Netanyahu has power over Biden but imagine how long Netanyahu would last if the Israelis thought he had lost them the support of the US.

And who knows? The voters might actually be impressed with a show of strength.

[Puja]

The US could stop it at any time, since they're supplying most of the weapons for it. Therefore they either want it to happen or they're indifferent. As the only superpower it would seem strange for them to let Israel make such big decisions for it, so it's safer to assume they want it to happen. Essentially the US is using Israel to wreck the Middle East ie create mass destruction and death in enemy Muslim countries, presumably for such ends as domination of an oil rich region, weakening Iran, to counter Russia's influence, whatever's trending in the CIA at this time.

Bold to assume that the US government has any control here. They may technically have the absolute power to call Israel to heel, but in doing so would guarantee a Republican landslide. Nevermind Trump's braying to the Christian nationalists and fanatics that would follow, just look at the special interest groups and PACS that targetted the reelection campaigns of pro-Palestinian Democratic Senators and destroyed them with funding their opponents, then scale that up nationally.

Puja

The US government absolutely has control here. They choose not to exercise the power they have.

If you give a country billions of dollars worth of weapons habitually, massively increase this in response to that country's use of those weapons then it's reasonable to assume you approve of what that country's doing with them.

I appreciate that today would not be the optimal day for Biden to develop a conscience. It would have been better to have taken an ethically and legally defensible position much earlier. But we are talking about total hypotheticals anyway...

I disagree that opposing Israel's actions at this time would cause a Republican victory , let alone a landslide. Just because an action seems inconceivable does not mean the sky would fall on our heads. Opposing Israel's actions could easily be framed as opposing Netanyahu, effectively about saving Israel from a dangerous man who would drag it into war. He could (again, inconceivable) call the pager attacks what they are, a massive terrorist act, and say that Israel has an out-of-control leader. You may think Netanyahu has power over Biden but imagine how long Netanyahu would last if the Israelis thought he had lost them the support of the US.

And who knows? The voters might actually be impressed with a show of strength.

You are positing that the US electorate, the same group that sees an old man screaming "THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS" as a likely president because they are incapable of separating truth from fiction, would react to a US government arresting Israel's imminent war (or even showing mild disapproval) by listening to the nuances of the sitation and being impressed at a show of strength? I admire your optimism!

No, the US electorate at large is highly racist, especially against Arabic muslims, and are predisposed by decades of culture and memes (in the original definition of the word) to see them all as freedom-hating terrorists and the majority white army as "The Good Guys" (not harmed by their army's friendly title of "Defence Force" no matter how proactive their defence gets). Combine that with the state of Israel's highly effective propaganda campaign to define any opposition to them as anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism, plus their political reach and connections in the US government, not to mention the Christofascists who think that supporting Israel is their godly duty and is part of the plan to bring on The Rapture, combined with the vested interests and money that would benefit from a destabilisation of the area. 58% of the US electorate support Israel's war in Gaza and that's before the propaganda blitz that stopping military support would incite.

Any attempt to frame it as "We're just opposing Netanyahu" would get drowned in the flood. Trump would pivot his campaign to "On day one, we're going to restart the shipments to Israel, we're going to give them so many way to protect themselves, truly they'd never be so protected, so safe, as I would make them" and all of the swing states that are right in the balance as things are would go Republican for President, Senate, and Congress. Hells, it wouldn't take that big of a swing to leave the Republican party with a supermajority in the Senate and who the fuck wants Trump with the power to rewrite the Constitution?

So yeah, Biden absolutely has the power to stop Netanyahu. It just wouldn't last very long.

Puja


ETA. I mean, I agree that he probably wouldn't anyway, but it's by-the-by when he also can't.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Bold to assume that the US government has any control here. They may technically have the absolute power to call Israel to heel, but in doing so would guarantee a Republican landslide. Nevermind Trump's braying to the Christian nationalists and fanatics that would follow, just look at the special interest groups and PACS that targetted the reelection campaigns of pro-Palestinian Democratic Senators and destroyed them with funding their opponents, then scale that up nationally.

Puja

The US government absolutely has control here. They choose not to exercise the power they have.

If you give a country billions of dollars worth of weapons habitually, massively increase this in response to that country's use of those weapons then it's reasonable to assume you approve of what that country's doing with them.

I appreciate that today would not be the optimal day for Biden to develop a conscience. It would have been better to have taken an ethically and legally defensible position much earlier. But we are talking about total hypotheticals anyway...

I disagree that opposing Israel's actions at this time would cause a Republican victory , let alone a landslide. Just because an action seems inconceivable does not mean the sky would fall on our heads. Opposing Israel's actions could easily be framed as opposing Netanyahu, effectively about saving Israel from a dangerous man who would drag it into war. He could (again, inconceivable) call the pager attacks what they are, a massive terrorist act, and say that Israel has an out-of-control leader. You may think Netanyahu has power over Biden but imagine how long Netanyahu would last if the Israelis thought he had lost them the support of the US.

And who knows? The voters might actually be impressed with a show of strength.

You are positing that the US electorate, the same group that sees an old man screaming "THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS" as a likely president because they are incapable of separating truth from fiction, would react to a US government arresting Israel's imminent war (or even showing mild disapproval) by listening to the nuances of the sitation and being impressed at a show of strength? I admire your optimism!

No, the US electorate at large is highly racist, especially against Arabic muslims, and are predisposed by decades of culture and memes (in the original definition of the word) to see them all as freedom-hating terrorists and the majority white army as "The Good Guys" (not harmed by their army's friendly title of "Defence Force" no matter how proactive their defence gets). Combine that with the state of Israel's highly effective propaganda campaign to define any opposition to them as anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism, plus their political reach and connections in the US government, not to mention the Christofascists who think that supporting Israel is their godly duty and is part of the plan to bring on The Rapture, combined with the vested interests and money that would benefit from a destabilisation of the area. 58% of the US electorate support Israel's war in Gaza and that's before the propaganda blitz that stopping military support would incite.

Any attempt to frame it as "We're just opposing Netanyahu" would get drowned in the flood. Trump would pivot his campaign to "On day one, we're going to restart the shipments to Israel, we're going to give them so many way to protect themselves, truly they'd never be so protected, so safe, as I would make them" and all of the swing states that are right in the balance as things are would go Republican for President, Senate, and Congress. Hells, it wouldn't take that big of a swing to leave the Republican party with a supermajority in the Senate and who the fuck wants Trump with the power to rewrite the Constitution?

So yeah, Biden absolutely has the power to stop Netanyahu. It just wouldn't last very long.

Puja


ETA. I mean, I agree that he probably wouldn't anyway, but it's by-the-by when he also can't.

Yeah, on the politics of opposing Netanyahu, I don't think I'll convince you but I'll have one more try. If Biden had taken this position from the point that it became clear that this was a massive, rolling war crime, say about nine months back, he could have taken his time to explain (if the media were ignoring it) all the crimes and the disproportionality, the number of children killed, also the fact that the worst things Hamas supposedly had done were actually made up by the Israelis. And then make the argument that Netanyahu's actions are making hostage recovery more difficult and dragging Israel into a greater war.

As far as how it plays with the US voters, most of the racist, conspiracy-believers are already supporting Trump, so what would this really change? He'd have lost some Jewish votes and gained Muslims and a lot of the young. I'm not convinced the effect is obviously bad for him (a although no doubt the pro-israel lobby has spread a lot of propaganda to say that it would).

But my main point was that Biden's actions show that the US either like what Israel is doing, or are at least indifferent. Do you agree? The point here is that Biden has bent over so far for Israel that I don't see another way of interpreting it. He isn't just allowing arms sales to Israel, he's giving them billions of dollars worth, over and above the amount they give Israel every year. He could easily not have done that and remained clearly pro-Israel. But he went the extra mile (and then a few more). That shows approval.

[Puja]

The US government absolutely has control here. They choose not to exercise the power they have.

If you give a country billions of dollars worth of weapons habitually, massively increase this in response to that country's use of those weapons then it's reasonable to assume you approve of what that country's doing with them.

I appreciate that today would not be the optimal day for Biden to develop a conscience. It would have been better to have taken an ethically and legally defensible position much earlier. But we are talking about total hypotheticals anyway...

I disagree that opposing Israel's actions at this time would cause a Republican victory , let alone a landslide. Just because an action seems inconceivable does not mean the sky would fall on our heads. Opposing Israel's actions could easily be framed as opposing Netanyahu, effectively about saving Israel from a dangerous man who would drag it into war. He could (again, inconceivable) call the pager attacks what they are, a massive terrorist act, and say that Israel has an out-of-control leader. You may think Netanyahu has power over Biden but imagine how long Netanyahu would last if the Israelis thought he had lost them the support of the US.

And who knows? The voters might actually be impressed with a show of strength.

You are positing that the US electorate, the same group that sees an old man screaming "THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS" as a likely president because they are incapable of separating truth from fiction, would react to a US government arresting Israel's imminent war (or even showing mild disapproval) by listening to the nuances of the sitation and being impressed at a show of strength? I admire your optimism!

No, the US electorate at large is highly racist, especially against Arabic muslims, and are predisposed by decades of culture and memes (in the original definition of the word) to see them all as freedom-hating terrorists and the majority white army as "The Good Guys" (not harmed by their army's friendly title of "Defence Force" no matter how proactive their defence gets). Combine that with the state of Israel's highly effective propaganda campaign to define any opposition to them as anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism, plus their political reach and connections in the US government, not to mention the Christofascists who think that supporting Israel is their godly duty and is part of the plan to bring on The Rapture, combined with the vested interests and money that would benefit from a destabilisation of the area. 58% of the US electorate support Israel's war in Gaza and that's before the propaganda blitz that stopping military support would incite.

Any attempt to frame it as "We're just opposing Netanyahu" would get drowned in the flood. Trump would pivot his campaign to "On day one, we're going to restart the shipments to Israel, we're going to give them so many way to protect themselves, truly they'd never be so protected, so safe, as I would make them" and all of the swing states that are right in the balance as things are would go Republican for President, Senate, and Congress. Hells, it wouldn't take that big of a swing to leave the Republican party with a supermajority in the Senate and who the fuck wants Trump with the power to rewrite the Constitution?

So yeah, Biden absolutely has the power to stop Netanyahu. It just wouldn't last very long.

Puja


ETA. I mean, I agree that he probably wouldn't anyway, but it's by-the-by when he also can't.

Yeah, on the politics of opposing Netanyahu, I don't think I'll convince you but I'll have one more try. If Biden had taken this position from the point that it became clear that this was a massive, rolling war crime, say about nine months back, he could have taken his time to explain (if the media were ignoring it) all the crimes and the disproportionality, the number of children killed, also the fact that the worst things Hamas supposedly had done were actually made up by the Israelis. And then make the argument that Netanyahu's actions are making hostage recovery more difficult and dragging Israel into a greater war.

As far as how it plays with the US voters, most of the racist, conspiracy-believers are already supporting Trump, so what would this really change? He'd have lost some Jewish votes and gained Muslims and a lot of the young. I'm not convinced the effect is obviously bad for him (a although no doubt the pro-israel lobby has spread a lot of propaganda to say that it would).

But my main point was that Biden's actions show that the US either like what Israel is doing, or are at least indifferent. Do you agree? The point here is that Biden has bent over so far for Israel that I don't see another way of interpreting it. He isn't just allowing arms sales to Israel, he's giving them billions of dollars worth, over and above the amount they give Israel every year. He could easily not have done that and remained clearly pro-Israel. But he went the extra mile (and then a few more). That shows approval.

I think you are drastically underestimating the amount and breadth of anti-Arabic racism in the US - it's very much not just confined to MAGA folk - and drastically overestimating the ability of the elctorate to understand nuance in the face of the easy-to-understand populist idea of IsraelGoodArabsTerrorists, but we'll leave that there.

I am actually traducing Biden with something worse than active approval - I think he's spending lives for political advantage. Any sign of weakness on Israel support (and not drastically escalating arms shipments in the name of their "defence" would count as that) would be punished by donors and powerful lobbying groups and Biden would rather have their full-throated support than save lives.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

You are positing that the US electorate, the same group that sees an old man screaming "THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS" as a likely president because they are incapable of separating truth from fiction, would react to a US government arresting Israel's imminent war (or even showing mild disapproval) by listening to the nuances of the sitation and being impressed at a show of strength? I admire your optimism!

No, the US electorate at large is highly racist, especially against Arabic muslims, and are predisposed by decades of culture and memes (in the original definition of the word) to see them all as freedom-hating terrorists and the majority white army as "The Good Guys" (not harmed by their army's friendly title of "Defence Force" no matter how proactive their defence gets). Combine that with the state of Israel's highly effective propaganda campaign to define any opposition to them as anti-Semitism and pro-terrorism, plus their political reach and connections in the US government, not to mention the Christofascists who think that supporting Israel is their godly duty and is part of the plan to bring on The Rapture, combined with the vested interests and money that would benefit from a destabilisation of the area. 58% of the US electorate support Israel's war in Gaza and that's before the propaganda blitz that stopping military support would incite.

Any attempt to frame it as "We're just opposing Netanyahu" would get drowned in the flood. Trump would pivot his campaign to "On day one, we're going to restart the shipments to Israel, we're going to give them so many way to protect themselves, truly they'd never be so protected, so safe, as I would make them" and all of the swing states that are right in the balance as things are would go Republican for President, Senate, and Congress. Hells, it wouldn't take that big of a swing to leave the Republican party with a supermajority in the Senate and who the fuck wants Trump with the power to rewrite the Constitution?

So yeah, Biden absolutely has the power to stop Netanyahu. It just wouldn't last very long.

Puja


ETA. I mean, I agree that he probably wouldn't anyway, but it's by-the-by when he also can't.

Yeah, on the politics of opposing Netanyahu, I don't think I'll convince you but I'll have one more try. If Biden had taken this position from the point that it became clear that this was a massive, rolling war crime, say about nine months back, he could have taken his time to explain (if the media were ignoring it) all the crimes and the disproportionality, the number of children killed, also the fact that the worst things Hamas supposedly had done were actually made up by the Israelis. And then make the argument that Netanyahu's actions are making hostage recovery more difficult and dragging Israel into a greater war.

As far as how it plays with the US voters, most of the racist, conspiracy-believers are already supporting Trump, so what would this really change? He'd have lost some Jewish votes and gained Muslims and a lot of the young. I'm not convinced the effect is obviously bad for him (a although no doubt the pro-israel lobby has spread a lot of propaganda to say that it would).

But my main point was that Biden's actions show that the US either like what Israel is doing, or are at least indifferent. Do you agree? The point here is that Biden has bent over so far for Israel that I don't see another way of interpreting it. He isn't just allowing arms sales to Israel, he's giving them billions of dollars worth, over and above the amount they give Israel every year. He could easily not have done that and remained clearly pro-Israel. But he went the extra mile (and then a few more). That shows approval.

I think you are drastically underestimating the amount and breadth of anti-Arabic racism in the US - it's very much not just confined to MAGA folk - and drastically overestimating the ability of the elctorate to understand nuance in the face of the easy-to-understand populist idea of IsraelGoodArabsTerrorists, but we'll leave that there.

I am actually traducing Biden with something worse than active approval - I think he's spending lives for political advantage. Any sign of weakness on Israel support (and not drastically escalating arms shipments in the name of their "defence" would count as that) would be punished by donors and powerful lobbying groups and Biden would rather have their full-throated support than save lives.

Puja

Yeah, I think we agree on the main point.

On the other I guess I'm more optimistic. Someone, sometime, needs to start to make the case to the US public. It's not totally impossible. You'd have thought that being a fan of the Russian dictator would be toxic to most of the electorate until someone did it, and hey, it actually isn't toxic. Presenting yourself as standing up for children, or against genocide could be a way in. (Not for Biden or Harris, obviously).

[paddy no 11]

Biden doubling down on backing Israel

[paddy no 11]

Says the world is a safer place without Nasrallah (maybe true) while shaking hands with a fella who's 25,000 children murdered in a year

[Puja]

The Israel "Defence" Force is now attacking targets in a second sovereign nation (should be three, but Palestine still doesn't count because reasons), as bombs go into Yemen.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

The Israel "Defence" Force is now attacking targets in a second sovereign nation (should be three, but Palestine still doesn't count because reasons), as bombs go into Yemen.

Puja

US bombs falling all over the Middle East. Everything going to plan.

[Puja]

The Israel "Defence" Force is now attacking targets in a second sovereign nation (should be three, but Palestine still doesn't count because reasons), as bombs go into Yemen.

Puja

US bombs falling all over the Middle East. Everything going to plan.

And now apparently the Defence Force is bombing Damascus to go for a third/fourth separate country to attack.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

The Israel "Defence" Force is now attacking targets in a second sovereign nation (should be three, but Palestine still doesn't count because reasons), as bombs go into Yemen.

Puja

US bombs falling all over the Middle East. Everything going to plan.

And now apparently the Defence Force is bombing Damascus to go for a third/fourth separate country to attack.

Puja

Since his genocide is going so well, Natanyahu is trying another Nazi trick: attacking all your neighbours.

It's almost as if he wants a wider war!?!?

No doubt the US and UK will call for all sides to de-escalate. Then blame it on Muslim intransigence.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Iranian academic Mohammad Marandi has clearly decided to take no more shit from UK journalists:

https://www.channel4.com/news/israel-wi ... n-academic

[paddy no 11]

Iranian academic Mohammad Marandi has clearly decided to take no more shit from UK journalists:

https://www.channel4.com/news/israel-wi ... n-academic

He's been pretty confrontational anytime ive seen him on channel 4, tbh he's equivalent to an idf spokesman not sure he is good for the program, same as broadcasting idf propaganda

[Son of Mathonwy]

Despicable double standards from Starmer here:



I wouldn't mind too much about this speech* if he got out his lectern (every single day) to condemn the far worse actions of Israel in Gaza and, now, Lebanon.

It would be nice if he could also 'utterly condemn' Israel's war crimes, apartheid or 57 year long occupation.

Oh yeah, and his use of the pronoun 'her' for Israel is creepy and demonstrative of how he places Israel in a different category to any other country.


*other than the lie about the attack being on innocent Israelis, rather than being a preannounced attack on military targets which in fact killed no Israelis at all. In dramatic contrast to the deadly attacks without warning which have killed hundreds in Lebanon and tens of thousands in Gaza.

[Puja]

Iranian academic Mohammad Marandi has clearly decided to take no more shit from UK journalists:

https://www.channel4.com/news/israel-wi ... n-academic

He's been pretty confrontational anytime ive seen him on channel 4, tbh he's equivalent to an idf spokesman not sure he is good for the program, same as broadcasting idf propaganda

He's not wrong about the initial framing of "Iranian regime" though.

Puja

[Zhivago]

I honestly don't understand why we support Israel. They killed plenty of British when we were custodians of the holy land.

Our foreign policy is a mess. We need to decide what exactly are our interests and advance them consistently.

[Puja]

I honestly don't understand why we support Israel. They killed plenty of British when we were custodians of the holy land.

Our foreign policy is a mess. We need to decide what exactly are our interests and advance them consistently.

Partly guilt over the Holocaust (and the fact that the opinions of a lot of our pre-war policitians weren't a great deal less anti-Semitic than Germany's), partly the fact that America travels lock-step with them and we travel lock-step with America, but I think a large part of it is that racism has shifted across the last 70-80 years and Israelis are seen as "like us" (cf. being honorary Europeans in football and Eurovision) whereas Arabic people are seen as "others".

Puja

[paddy no 11]

Iranian academic Mohammad Marandi has clearly decided to take no more shit from UK journalists:

https://www.channel4.com/news/israel-wi ... n-academic

He's been pretty confrontational anytime ive seen him on channel 4, tbh he's equivalent to an idf spokesman not sure he is good for the program, same as broadcasting idf propaganda

He's not wrong about the initial framing of "Iranian regime" though.

Puja

Agreed

[Sandydragon]

The Israel "Defence" Force is now attacking targets in a second sovereign nation (should be three, but Palestine still doesn't count because reasons), as bombs go into Yemen.

Puja

US bombs falling all over the Middle East. Everything going to plan.

And now apparently the Defence Force is bombing Damascus to go for a third/fourth separate country to attack.

Puja

Hezbollah did attack Israel first. I get the emotion on here but would any country tolerate the continued firing of rockets by a terrorist group from across a border? I think not.

Netanyahu doesn’t want peace due to his domestic problems, but he’s hardly the only warmonger in the region at the moment.