Positions 1 - 15

[Donny osmond]

It's surely going to be 1 or 2 honoured with being selected to play with the Irish team? In fact, surely we should just be asking which Irish players will only make the bench and not start?

[paddy no 11]

I can't work out your tone on this one

[Donny osmond]

Only being slightly facetious tbh. Genuinely, we could discuss the merits of, e.g. Zander Fagerson as Lions test starter, or one of the Curry twins, or Jack Morgan, but who is there from Sco, Wal or Eng that is a better player than the Irish player in that position. I would suggest, very few.

[Puja]

Only being slightly facetious tbh. Genuinely, we could discuss the merits of, e.g. Zander Fagerson as Lions test starter, or one of the Curry twins, or Jack Morgan, but who is there from Sco, Wal or Eng that is a better player than the Irish player in that position. I would suggest, very few.

I would be surprised if it was as Irish as you expect. Apart from anything else, there's almost always an unexpected name that ends up demanding a Test jersey with their form on a Lions tour - Martin Corry in 2001, Tom Croft in 2009, Tom Youngs in 2013 - but also Ireland's individuals aren't all that. They're a very good team, but to suggest that all fifteen of their fifteen are better than the options from England and Scotland is incredibly over the top.

I'd expect about 12 Irish players in the XXIII, probably about 8-9 in the starting XV. I won't try and get into predictions or saying "This player over that", cause there's a lot of rugby to be played, injuries to fall victim to and, as I said, there'll be somebody who takes off on tour, but it definitely won't be "Ireland plus guests".

Puja

[Donny osmond]

The Irish may or may not be better individually - and I agree with you, I don't think they necessarily are - but surely the biggest question the head coach will be asking is how they play as a team, at which skill the Irish are demonstrably well ahead of the rest.

[Puja]

The Irish may or may not be better individually - and I agree with you, I don't think they necessarily are - but surely the biggest question the head coach will be asking is how they play as a team, at which skill the Irish are demonstrably well ahead of the rest.

I see your point, but Farrell is aware that he's leading a Lions tour. If he runs the side as you think, with the expectation that the best way to building a team is to have Ireland starting, with other players having to win the shirt off the incumbent Irish player, then he will have a very unhappy squad, very quickly, and the tour will fall apart (and not just from the non-Irish - I don't think the Irish players will be keen about not having the proper Lions experience).

If it was "Pick a side from the British Isles to play for your life in a game tomorrow", then I'd agree that Ireland plus a couple of special guests would likely be the right call. But that isn't the case - it's 6 warm-up games and a month of training, combined with players coming in with excitement and expectations that there are no incumbents in the shirts and that every place is up for winning. I've no doubt a fair few of the starting shirts will go to Irishmen, but I doubt Farrell's an idiot who'll wreck the tour. Apart from anything else, he'll want to be in charge in 2029 as well.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Well here is my pre-6N attempt, which already has some fairly laughable calls in it.

Estimates at the squad size is anywhere from 37-42, but not sure where people are getting those numbers. It started at 37 last time, during COVID and adding players later, but was 41 in 2017. I know it's too early but the Autumn is done now and I thought it might be a laugh to see how many Scots I can fit in a squad before we crumble in the 6 nations and Wales come back from the Sarlacc pit.

Forwards (24):

1. Porter, Schoeman, Genge, Baxter**
2. Sheahan*, Lake, Kelleher, George
3. Fagerson, Bealham, Stuart, Furlong*
4. Itoje, Beirne, Ryan
5. McCarthy, Martin
6. CCS, Curry, Baird/Chessum
7. VDF/Morgan/Darge/Underhill (two of, somehow)
8. Doris (c), Fagerson

Backs (16):

9. JGP, White, Mitchell
10. Russell, Smith, Crowley
11. Freeman, VDM/Lowe***
12. Tuipulotu, Aki
13. Ringrose*, Jones (realistically though, just stick with either established pair)
14. IFW, Hansen
15. Keenan, Kinghorn

HC: Farrell, Forwards: POC, Attack: Jones, Defence: Tandy

*Assuming they come back to anything like their usual form
** Pleading ignorance, I really don't know who else is pushing for a place
*** There are good arguments that both are too one-dimensional. I just don't get Lowe at all tbh, but feel like big powerful options on the left will be wanted. Personally I'd take VDM's game-breaking potential vs Lowe's ability to kick the ball really, really hard.

There'a couple of guys like George and Furlong who may be a bit past it, but there's not a huge amount of depth or experience there otherwise. Maybe LCD will have taken the England 2 shirt back and be a contender. Tempted to put (2 of) Ryan/Baird/Chessum in as a rangey lock/blindside option. Don't particularly like Ryan but accept he's highly rated.

Leaving Henshaw out feels wrong, but he doesn't look the same player to me anymore. I couldn't work out how to trim the forwards (particularly backrow) down any further to make room. Kinghorn potentially tied up in France, maybe Furbank or Frawley would offer some useful versatility in that slot as Keenan is clearly first choice. We'd need one on the bench or Freeman/Smith to be able to cover there from the 23.

I've not looked at any of the squads floating around, so I'm prepared to have completely overlooked someone or something.

10/24 Irish forwards. 7/16 Irish backs. Rationale on squad numbers may be completely off but there we go.

Martin, CCS, M Fagerson, White, Crowley looking like questionable calls at this point.

[Puja]

10/24 Irish forwards. 7/16 Irish backs. Rationale on squad numbers may be completely off but there we go.

Martin, CCS, M Fagerson, White, Crowley looking like questionable calls at this point.

You got Smith right at 10 though!

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

10/24 Irish forwards. 7/16 Irish backs. Rationale on squad numbers may be completely off but there we go.

Martin, CCS, M Fagerson, White, Crowley looking like questionable calls at this point.

You got Smith right at 10 though!

Puja

Ha. Could well be 0/3 on fly-halves with the way things are going.

I probably won’t even watch if Russell doesn’t go, to be honest.

[paddy no 11]

All change now

Ireland are past it age wise

[paddy no 11]

Don't want anyone over 30 going in a lions tour

[paddy no 11]

Poor Ben Thomas is in line for the Geoff Cross award for this 6N, though gatty is complicit

[cashead]

10/24 Irish forwards. 7/16 Irish backs. Rationale on squad numbers may be completely off but there we go.

Martin, CCS, M Fagerson, White, Crowley looking like questionable calls at this point.

You got Smith right at 10 though!

Puja

Ha. Could well be 0/3 on fly-halves with the way things are going.

I probably won’t even watch if Russell doesn’t go, to be honest.

Finn’s been pretty poor this 6Ns, so his form doesn’t warrant it IMO, but he’ll probably be flying to Straya.


Gilchrist and Jamie Ritchie should be in the squad though.

[Mikey Brown]

Nah. Ropey moments, bad game vs England, but he’s judged by a different standard. All the current options make mistakes and he creates so much more.

Ritchie really has come back to his best. Can’t see Gilchrist going though.

[cashead]

Fair. Unlike previous tours, there really hasn’t been a clear and obvious choice like Faz, Biggar or Sexton, so you might as well go with the guy whom you know can deliver at the test level.

I guess it’ll be Finn and the Smiths out of England. I’d be reluctant to pick any of the Irish 10s, and Wales would be lucky to have even 3 or 4 players total selected in the entire squad like the Scots in the 2000s.

[Spiffy]

Don't want anyone over 30 going in a lions tour

This rule was actually imposed on the 1955 Lions to SA. Jack Kyle,just 30, was therefore not selected but went on to play for Ireland for a few more years. Luckily the Lions had the brilliant Cliff Morgan, but what a pair of 10s that would have been.

[Cameo]

I'm not sure I can be bothered to spend months debating each of the individual spots in their own threads, but I made a list so might as well share. I actually thought i was easier than sometimes, some tight and people who would be unlucky if this is the outcome, but with the exception of the backrow, most of those missing out having played great recently)

Looseheads:

- Genge
- Porter
- Baxter (bit of a stretch maybe, but Schoeman was average and not sure on Nicky Thomas)

Hookers:

- Sheehan
- Kelleher
- Lake/George

Tighheads:

- Stuart
- Fagerson
- Furlong/Bealham (depending on how convincing Furlong's fitness is)

Locks:

- Itoje
- McCarthy
- Chessum
- Beirne
- Can we squeeze in Jenkins? (Feels like we should have 5 locks including Beirne, who can cover 6, but no standouts. Cummings if he had been fit may have been an option or may revert to someone like Henderson. Ryan hasn't done much for a while)

Backrow:

- Morgan
- VDF
- T Curry (I am not his biggest fan and prefer B Curry and Darge - though not at his very best - as 7s, but I'm not sure we need three out and out 7s and T Curry was good this tournament and offers a bit more versatility)
- Earl
- Doris
- One more 6/8 option - I actually think M Fagerson should be up there but he didn't have a great tournament so would be open to Ritchie, Conan, Willis or even Wainwright who I think has more than he is showing (there is a lot of strength here before you even begin to consider outsiders like Pollock or the other Willis)

Scrumhalf:

- JGP
- Mitchell
- Williams/White (not a position of real strength - open to defaulting to welsh option if close)

Flyhalf:

- Russell (I'm a bit baffled by the debate on this. To me he is the clear starter (and should have been last time). He had one iffy game vs Italy and one game vs England where his kicking was off. Oh, and he smiled at the wrong time. I'm not saying there aren't other good 10s about or that they shouldn't get a shot on tour but are you really starting F Smith over Russell on the back of a couple of decent performances behind dominant packs?)
- F Smith
- M Smith

Centres:

- Tuipolotu
- Henshaw
- Aki
- Jones
- Ringrose

Wings

- Freeman
- Graham
- VDM
- Lowe


Fullbacks

- Keenan
- Murray/Furbank (Kinghorn is the obvious guy missing here but the French season might get in the way and I don't rate him as highly as some. I also think Murray could do very well in a better team).

Think that is 37. I have heard talk of them taking 38 in which case either another backrow from my list or Tom Jordan as a utility back.

[Big D]

Hooker (3): Sheehan, Kelleher, George (thought about Lake)
Props (6): Furlong, Porter, Genge, Stuart, Fagerson, Schoeman
Second Rows (5): Itoje, Bierne, Ryan, Chessum, Jenkins
Back row (7): Doris, Morgan, Curry (T), Earls, JvDF, Curry (B), one of Ritchie/Dempsey/Fagerson

SH (3): JGP, Mitchell, Williams although White was good v France and wouldn'tbe surprised if the Lions staff like him.
10 (3): Finn, Fin, Smith/one of the Irish two (can't see Farrell not taking one).
Centres (5): Tuipulotu, Jones, Ringrose, Aki, Jordan
Back 3 (6): Kinghorn, Graham, VdM, Lowe, Keenan, Freeman

38 total (21 forwards and 17 backs)

England - 12
Ireland - 13
Scotland - 10
Wales - 3

LHP and hooker could see some wild cards. I wanted to find a spot for Martin but went for Ryan instead.

The Warburton/Welsh propaganda about Murray is laughable. Not even a speed bump in defence and not as good as the other options in other facets.