2025 Autumn Internationals

[Cameo]

Gregor Brown is unavailable after concussion last week.
Tonga are poor. What is the point of fielding our best available, what would we learn? Only that Townsend is feeling the heat.
The plan for this game surely was to get guys with little to no international experience out there.
If he goes full on and we win by less than 40 it's a very poor look.

I think my issue is we have had loads of chances to see our second string guys in easy games over the last couple of years. Worth it to an extent, but what do we really learn?

I want Scotland games to be a means to improve our top team, not a chance to make up for the lack of gametime.our youngsters get.

I think we would learn far more by dropping in a few into the top team than wholesale changes. Hence Jordan at fullback, another start for Dobie, and changes at second row and in the back row. Wouldn't mind a couple more changes than I have set out but I don't want it effectively turned into a Scotland A game.

[BaldiePete]

Tom English nicely summing up the current debacle.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... xkx2yzq8jo

[Cameo]

On a similar vein, how hard is it to organise a proper A game? Would the All Blacks XV not have been up for another game?

[septic 9]

I think my issue is we have had loads of chances to see our second string guys in easy games over the last couple of years. Worth it to an extent, but what do we really learn?

I want Scotland games to be a means to improve our top team, not a chance to make up for the lack of gametime.our youngsters get.

I think we would learn far more by dropping in a few into the top team than wholesale changes. Hence Jordan at fullback, another start for Dobie, and changes at second row and in the back row. Wouldn't mind a couple more changes than I have set out but I don't want it effectively turned into a Scotland A game.

we learn a lot, a helluva lot when we blood new players. The better ones get more chances, the less good don't. And the more games the better ones get at international level, the better they are in competing at that level. Its not about lack of gametime, its about exposure to a higher level, to new sides and new expectations. And about allowing them to prove they are ready to improve the team which incidentally should sur the "old guard" to new heights. Its about the next generation of internationalists, bringing them in bit by bit rather than throwing them in together, see Aus under Eddie Jones

An alternative way to look at this is what on earth will we learn by fielding our best team against a Tongan team that will not change much from the one that just scraped a win against the "emerging Scotland", ie little more than a joint academies team? Zilch

[Cameo]

I think my issue is we have had loads of chances to see our second string guys in easy games over the last couple of years. Worth it to an extent, but what do we really learn?

I want Scotland games to be a means to improve our top team, not a chance to make up for the lack of gametime.our youngsters get.

I think we would learn far more by dropping in a few into the top team than wholesale changes. Hence Jordan at fullback, another start for Dobie, and changes at second row and in the back row. Wouldn't mind a couple more changes than I have set out but I don't want it effectively turned into a Scotland A game.

we learn a lot, a helluva lot when we blood new players. The better ones get more chances, the less good don't. And the more games the better ones get at international level, the better they are in competing at that level. Its not about lack of gametime, its about exposure to a higher level, to new sides and new expectations. And about allowing them to prove they are ready to improve the team which incidentally should sur the "old guard" to new heights. Its about the next generation of internationalists, bringing them in bit by bit rather than throwing them in together, see Aus under Eddie Jones

An alternative way to look at this is what on earth will we learn by fielding our best team against a Tongan team that will not change much from the one that just scraped a win against the "emerging Scotland", ie little more than a joint academies team? Zilch

I don't think we are massively disagreeing. I just don't want a completely new team full of players we know won't start the big games. I want a core of the established top team with five or six players who we can see breaking into that team.

There's merit in building depth but I don't want us using two of our four autumn internationals (plus the three on the summer tour) focusing just on that. I want to see Jordan as a second playmaker with Russell and two wingers who might play. Williamson with Cummings and our top hooker. Dobie with Russell again. Onyeama-Christie working together with players he has barely played with for years. Hutchison with Tuipolutu again.

We won't learn a whole lot from that, but we will build combinations we might actually use.

[sharvey44]

Scotland v Tonga Nov 2012. Pittodrie. The end of the Andy Robinson era.

Could Scotland v Tonga Nov 2025 be the end of the Toonie era?

[BaldiePete]

Scotland team for Tonga. It’s a bit of a nothing game, this team should dispose of Tonga, but will Townsend ever have the guts to promote these guys to the starting 15 for big games (Fagerson excepted of course, he’ll always start big games).

Fagerson is back and i think it’s only Tuipolotu who has been retained from last week’s starters. It mostly looks like a case of giving the squad players a game this week. Lots of folk calling for Russell and Kinghorn to be dropped but it’s likely they wouldn’t have played anyway.

I’m definitely interested to see how that back row goes, I’ve always thought that Onyeama-Christie was a very handy player who should have got more chances with Scotland (not withstanding the horrendous injury he got).

Also, I hope Townsend uses the bench properly this week, his use of the bench has been bordering on incompetent.

[septic 9]

Scotland team for Tonga. It’s a bit of a nothing game, this team should dispose of Tonga, but will Townsend ever have the guts to promote these guys to the starting 15 for big games (Fagerson excepted of course, he’ll always start big games).

Fagerson is back and i think it’s only Tuipolotu who has been retained from last week’s starters. It mostly looks like a case of giving the squad players a game this week. Lots of folk calling for Russell and Kinghorn to be dropped but it’s likely they wouldn’t have played anyway.

I’m definitely interested to see how that back row goes, I’ve always thought that Onyeama-Christie was a very handy player who should have got more chances with Scotland (not withstanding the horrendous injury he got).

Also, I hope Townsend uses the bench properly this week, his use of the bench has been bordering on incompetent.

its not borderline anything, the selection and use off the bench was worse than incompetent
That team will stroll to a win, it should be a very clear win. Anything less and he has to walk.

Tonga team to play Scotland

Siegfried Fisi’ihoi Siua Maile Ben Tameifuna (captain)
Harison Mataele Veikoso Poloniati
Semisi Paea Siosiua Moala Lotu Inisi

Sonatane Takulua Patrick Pellegrini

John Tapueluelu Solomone Kata Fine Inisi Taniela Filimone
William Havili
Replacements:
16. Samiuela Moli 17. Fatongia Paea 18. Phil Kite 19. Sitaleki Timani 20. Fotu Lokotui 21. Aisea Halo 22. Tima Fainga’anuku
23. Anzelo Tuitavuki

compare to Tonga who struggled ot beat emerging Scotland

F Paea , S Maile , B Tameifuna
H Mataele , V Poloniati
S Paea, T Afungia S Moala.

Pelegrini, S Nginingini (A Halo 30)
T Filimone , T Fainga’anuku (F Unisi 30), S Kata , J Tapueluelu
W Havili
subs
S Moli P Kite S Tokolahi P Napa’a S Sakalia A Tuitavuki O Manuofeta

[Cameo]

Tonfa backline has some decent players in it. Pelegrini had an unbelievable start to the Moana Pacifika club season. That said, Septic is right. Scotland should win comfortably.

This game makes me glad we have the Nations Cup next year. I want more than two games where we can take stuff from the team selection and game. Yes, it's good that some of these players are getting a game, but I'd rather a full test plus a separate A game.

That's not trying to bag Tonga, but everyone should take their share of playing the weaker teams, not just us.

[septic 9]

Tonfa backline has some decent players in it. Pelegrini had an unbelievable start to the Moana Pacifika club season. That said, Septic is right. Scotland should win comfortably.

This game makes me glad we have the Nations Cup next year. I want more than two games where we can take stuff from the team selection and game. Yes, it's good that some of these players are getting a game, but I'd rather a full test plus a separate A game.

That's not trying to bag Tonga, but everyone should take their share of playing the weaker teams, not just us.

yes, we get more games against toop teams tks to Nations Cup. Then no-one, us included will play the Tongas and Georgias outside a RWC pool

[Cameo]

Tonfa backline has some decent players in it. Pelegrini had an unbelievable start to the Moana Pacifika club season. That said, Septic is right. Scotland should win comfortably.

This game makes me glad we have the Nations Cup next year. I want more than two games where we can take stuff from the team selection and game. Yes, it's good that some of these players are getting a game, but I'd rather a full test plus a separate A game.

That's not trying to bag Tonga, but everyone should take their share of playing the weaker teams, not just us.

yes, we get more games against toop teams tks to Nations Cup. Then no-one, us included will play the Tongas and Georgias outside a RWC pool

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. You would think there is scope for an arrangement where everyone plays three nations cup games in each window and one game against a team not involved. It wouldn't be perfect, but, if you also included promotion and relegation to the Nations Cup, it would be something.

[septic 9]

Tonfa backline has some decent players in it. Pelegrini had an unbelievable start to the Moana Pacifika club season. That said, Septic is right. Scotland should win comfortably.

This game makes me glad we have the Nations Cup next year. I want more than two games where we can take stuff from the team selection and game. Yes, it's good that some of these players are getting a game, but I'd rather a full test plus a separate A game.

That's not trying to bag Tonga, but everyone should take their share of playing the weaker teams, not just us.

yes, we get more games against toop teams tks to Nations Cup. Then no-one, us included will play the Tongas and Georgias outside a RWC pool

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. You would think there is scope for an arrangement where everyone plays three nations cup games in each window and one game against a team not involved. It wouldn't be perfect, but, if you also included promotion and relegation to the Nations Cup, it would be something.

there are already too many international fixtures. We will have 5*6N, plus 6* NC, plus play offs for us if we are lucky, definitely for others. Add in an extra eg Tonga and easily get to 14. Players easily appearing more often for country than club.
And those who did not play Tonga or Georgia in the past still wouldn't, partly for the above reason, partly money. Note that in this wonderful new NC, Fiji will have to play "home games" in europe, including against us.
Its all about money for Aus and NZ, no one gives a fuck there about growing the game

[septic 9]

just as an aside on whether we should have blooded more players in the Tonga match. We beat USA 85-0 with no KInghorn, Jones, Tuipolotu, Russell, White, Ashman, Turner, Schoeman, Gilchrist, Z Fagerson, Miller-Mills, Hurd, M Fagerson, Darge, Richie, probably a couple more.
Tonga are ranked below USA.

[Cameo]

just as an aside on whether we should have blooded more players in the Tonga match. We beat USA 85-0 with no KInghorn, Jones, Tuipolotu, Russell, White, Ashman, Turner, Schoeman, Gilchrist, Z Fagerson, Miller-Mills, Hurd, M Fagerson, Darge, Richie, probably a couple more.
Tonga are ranked below USA.

At the start, I should re-iterate that I don't think we are necessarilly disagreeing here. I'm more pushing back on thise (elsewhere) who see it as an outrage whenever they see a firsr choice starter in any of these easier games and think they should solely be for those struggling to get a pro start (charicaturing a little, but you know the type).

I suppose I just come back to what we are trying to achieve. If it is just to get as many caps as possible into fringe players without losing then yes, by all means blood more players.

I think we have had enough of that for now. Over the last couple of years it feels some fringe players gave played as much as the first choice. I want the focus in these games to be on:

a) giving a chance to the players who might be deserving of being first choice to see how they fit in surrounded by mainly first choice players

b) building cohesion.

If that means it is a glorified training run, so be it. I'm not saying it would be super useful, I just don't want two of our four AIs being used in an attempt to make up for our failure to give meaningful professional gametime to our youngsters.

[Cameo]

Ireland got beat up today, but showed why they are a better team than us. On the back foot, being physically dominated, they kept coming up with little moments to turn, or at least reduce, the momentum.

We have done it once or twice in the past, thinking Ireland away, but too often a team with momentum scores too easy against us.

I'm putting a lot of it on lack of jackal ability across the team.

[BaldiePete]

So we ended up wInning 56-0 against a very poor and undisciplined Tonga. It was a poor game played in a very flat atmosphere at Murrayfield. We went missing for about 40 minutes either side of halftime without scoring and there was more noise for the mascot race at halftime than there was for most of the rugby that preceded it.

[BaldiePete]

From their performances this autumn Ashman has definitely overtaken Turner as first choice hooker. Ashman has improved his lineout throwing which was always the worst part of his game.

It was great to see Fagerson back and it was good that he was subbed off early in his first game this season. No need to push him in a game like this.

Ritchie had a good game and must be pushing to get his place back in the 6N.

Bradbury also played well but he’ll still be behind Dempsey. Excellent bench option though.

White wasn’t great and Horne came on and did George Horne things. He is ideal coming on with 20 to go but I suspect that at this point in his career (I was shocked to realise that he’s 30) he’s not going to be a starter.

[paddy no 11]

Significant come back for Argentina v England

They should never have gone for the lineout at the end think they had a far better chance to win off a tap penalty

[Cameo]

From their performances this autumn Ashman has definitely overtaken Turner as first choice hooker. Ashman has improved his lineout throwing which was always the worst part of his game.

It was great to see Fagerson back and it was good that he was subbed off early in his first game this season. No need to push him in a game like this.

Ritchie had a good game and must be pushing to get his place back in the 6N.

Bradbury also played well but he’ll still be behind Dempsey. Excellent bench option though.

White wasn’t great and Horne came on and did George Horne things. He is ideal coming on with 20 to go but I suspect that at this point in his career (I was shocked to realise that he’s 30) he’s not going to be a starter.

Agree with most of that.

Ritchie had good moments but gave away a few penalties. I would like him to start the big games to add niggle and disrupt opponents a big more than we've been managing.

Horne was great, and always will be in these games, but is our third best option for tougher games.

I think Ashman, Rae and Hutchison have been the significant (only?) pluses from this series.

[Cameo]

Oh, and the Tuipolutu disallowed try was funny. Surely the TMO could have stepped in there or do they just not bother when a game looks one sided?

[septic 9]

Oh, and the Tuipolutu disallowed try was funny. Surely the TMO could have stepped in there or do they just not bother when a game looks one sided?

too early to think it was one-sided (although it was always going to be).
Don't think the TMO can step in there unless the ref asks. Ref was very confident (challenged by Sione) but just very very wrong

[septic 9]

agree re Ashman, and his throwing improved no end. Turner has just not looked the same since he came back from Japan.
Hard to find positives given 2 losses we could/should have won, and 2 mis-match walkovers.
But Zander back
Rae is a good back up for him, for once one I could feel confident about.
Bradbury had a decent game, but he can only be a Dempsey substitute.
Hutchison showed he is good enough to play internationally, just love how he has clearly worked to get his defence there.
With so much contestable kicking, we have to re-think how we play and how we defend them. And that might mean challenging or changes some "shoe-in" players. TBF Duhan actually twice yesterday chased, attacked and caught a high ball, probably doubling his career stats.
Alex Samuel is growing into a top lock, needs to replace Gilco for 6N. Runs a very good lineout and is a lighthouse with bulk, carries better.
Richie is still not certain for me. Had a decent game yesterday against a very poor opposition but still managed to give away a stupid unnecessary pen. So much competition in the back row anyway. If he is involved for me its as a bench back row (depending on who starts he could miss out there) or as an openside. Miles behind Brown at 6, and he isn't an 8

[Cameo]

Yeah, at the moment, I'd have Ritchie at 7. I love Darge, but I don't think he's been having the impact I'd want for a while. You are not wrong about the penalties though.

Hopefully we can find the right combo.

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t want us to just become a pure kick chase team but the impact Ritchie was having there in the 6 nations was huge as well. I don’t think we have another forward with any sort of a knack for that.

I really rate Darge too, but it’s a tough one with the current balance of the backrow. With Brown being such a workhorse and Dempsey the all-out physical carrier, Ritchie, AOC and Darge are all pretty viable options in the 7 shirt. If we go with Ritchie at 7 AOC feels like a much better bench option, but it feels crazy to leave Darge out of the 23 altogether.

The 6 nations is a long way off though.

[septic 9]

I don’t want us to just become a pure kick chase team but the impact Ritchie was having there in the 6 nations was huge as well. I don’t think we have another forward with any sort of a knack for that.

I really rate Darge too, but it’s a tough one with the current balance of the backrow. With Brown being such a workhorse and Dempsey the all-out physical carrier, Ritchie, AOC and Darge are all pretty viable options in the 7 shirt. If we go with Ritchie at 7 AOC feels like a much better bench option, but it feels crazy to leave Darge out of the 23 altogether.

The 6 nations is a long way off though.

2 points from that
I also do not want to be primarily kick and chase team. We are better at other stuff. The issue for me is other teams exploit any aerial weakness relentlessly. We can't just ignore that - that wa is head in sand folly. Either we somehow get our first pick back 3 better, or we need to look at options for at least one of them, maybe 2. This will be a difficult balanced decision to make, or should be. A moment of magic which may or may not create a try against a weakness that repeatedly loses the ball and puts us on the back foot scrambling
Other point is Christie. I was really disappointed TBH. Did he occasion get to him, or just a bad day? Another similar and given the many other options...................