New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Puja]

A couple of months ago, I would probably have said the same thing, but Sela impresses me every time I see him play and he doesn’t look like a guy with a handful of first team games under his belt.

Wouldn't you have said the same of Fasogbon though at the same point for him a year or so ago? Second season syndrome is very much a real issue, especially for young props, and it can be accelerated into by being dumped into a higher level and getting a "learning experience" against a horrible old loosehead.

Puja

[Puja]

I think it's too early for Sela. Needs more senior game time and time to develop.

Fasogbon as an option off the bench is fairly idea, massive unit who's mobile. Not sure I'd want him starting a game currently though which is where Davison would become useful. Heyes to start and Fasogbon from the bench would be the preferred but if Heyes has to drop out then Davison starts and Fasogbon remains the impact option.

While I agree with you that it wouldn't be ideal for Fasogbon to start, and there is a lot to be said for picking the option for now rather than just going all-out on potential and development, the question has to be raised as to whether Davison would actually be meaningfully better as a starting international than Fasogbon would, on just current ability only.

Puja

There's not a lot in it certainly but Davison is a canny operator, he's got the experience and knows what's going to be coming from the opposition loosehead. Particularly in the 6N where there's some really tricky customers with Nicky Smith, Schoeman, Porter (a man who simply can't scrummage straight) and any of the many France can put out. Just provide a stable footing for the first half alongside Baxter and then Genge and Fasogbon can turn up the temperature after half time.

I don't see him being able to provide a stable footing is the thing. Just doesn't strike me as good enough.

Entirely possible that I am wrong though - there's a lot of tighthead selection criteria that's really only visible to the coaches in training, so I'm willing to be proven wrong. Not exactly like we've got a wide body of evidence for him at international level yet.

Puja

[FKAS]

While I agree with you that it wouldn't be ideal for Fasogbon to start, and there is a lot to be said for picking the option for now rather than just going all-out on potential and development, the question has to be raised as to whether Davison would actually be meaningfully better as a starting international than Fasogbon would, on just current ability only.

Puja

There's not a lot in it certainly but Davison is a canny operator, he's got the experience and knows what's going to be coming from the opposition loosehead. Particularly in the 6N where there's some really tricky customers with Nicky Smith, Schoeman, Porter (a man who simply can't scrummage straight) and any of the many France can put out. Just provide a stable footing for the first half alongside Baxter and then Genge and Fasogbon can turn up the temperature after half time.

I don't see him being able to provide a stable footing is the thing. Just doesn't strike me as good enough.

Entirely possible that I am wrong though - there's a lot of tighthead selection criteria that's really only visible to the coaches in training, so I'm willing to be proven wrong. Not exactly like we've got a wide body of evidence for him at international level yet.

Puja

Oh I'm not advocating him as a good international tighthead it's just generally preferable to have an experienced option in disaster scenarios (and being three tightheads down would be). Otherwise if the pressure is piling on you've got a youngster starting and another youngster as the potential relief.

Ideally he'd be in the squad and never actually play. Heyes and Fasogbon get the minutes.

[Oakboy]

Just a genuine question of those who know more about front rowers than me, "As a short-term stand-in, is Davison really a better tighthead than Williams?

[Scrumhead]

There's not a lot in it certainly but Davison is a canny operator, he's got the experience and knows what's going to be coming from the opposition loosehead. Particularly in the 6N where there's some really tricky customers with Nicky Smith, Schoeman, Porter (a man who simply can't scrummage straight) and any of the many France can put out. Just provide a stable footing for the first half alongside Baxter and then Genge and Fasogbon can turn up the temperature after half time.

I don't see him being able to provide a stable footing is the thing. Just doesn't strike me as good enough.

Entirely possible that I am wrong though - there's a lot of tighthead selection criteria that's really only visible to the coaches in training, so I'm willing to be proven wrong. Not exactly like we've got a wide body of evidence for him at international level yet.

Puja

Oh I'm not advocating him as a good international tighthead it's just generally preferable to have an experienced option in disaster scenarios (and being three tightheads down would be). Otherwise if the pressure is piling on you've got a youngster starting and another youngster as the potential relief.

Ideally he'd be in the squad and never actually play. Heyes and Fasogbon get the minutes.

Fair enough. Hopefully, we won’t be in the emergency situation.

Sounds like Ireland will definitely be missing Porter and McCarthy. That’s rough. I don’t even know who their 3rd choice would be? Boyle?

Worth noting that Fin Baxter hasn’t been seen in a few weeks. Nothing’s been reported so perhaps it’s nothing too serious, but I hope he’s fit.

[fivepointer]

Just a genuine question of those who know more about front rowers than me, "As a short-term stand-in, is Davison really a better tighthead than Williams?

I'd say no. Williams at least has the international experience under his belt.

[Beasties]

Just a genuine question of those who know more about front rowers than me, "As a short-term stand-in, is Davison really a better tighthead than Williams?

I'd say no. Williams at least has the international experience under his belt.

Don’t know how he’s playing right now, but when Williams was in squads he was perfectly serviceable without exciting anyone. Options were waaay more limited at the time though. Davison’s not bad, but struggles against the best as we saw last weekend.

Puja’s made the right point above. Davison’s a placeholder but no more. Meh. But why would you go back to Williams at this stage?

[Scrumhead]

Hard pass on Williams for me. He’s big and experienced, but that doesn’t translate to being particularly good.

[Which Tyler]

Terrible decision making* by Lawrenc there. On top of losing possession in contact a couple of times.

Not what he'll want just before the 6N


* Gets the ball after a turn-over, had about 1/3 of the width of the pitch, and a 3 on 2 with TdG and Arundell for company - never looks up, just kicks (badly) back to where the other 25 players are

[Puja]

Just a genuine question of those who know more about front rowers than me, "As a short-term stand-in, is Davison really a better tighthead than Williams?

Harry Williams? As in ex-Exeter prop, now playing for Quins? Blimey, hadn't thought of him as any kind of viable options, but I can't think of any other Williamses that would be relevant here, so I assume that's the one you mean.

He has got more international experience, but he is also 34 and was never very good around the pitch even when he was young. I think I'd rather have the younger and better in the loose player, who's been in the squad and knows the calls, especially when he's been playing for a successful team - confidence does carry.

Two bald men fighting over a comb with that "Would you rather", but yeah, I'd pick Davison is that was the choice before me.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I’m so confused by this tighthead discussion going on in two simultaneous threads.

[Oakboy]

I’m so confused by this tighthead discussion going on in two simultaneous threads.

MB, that will always happen with this catch-all thread on 'form'. (Simultaneous discussion, not your confusion, I hasten to add ).

[Scrumhead]

Saw on another forum that Steward is injured and might miss the 6N. First I’d heard of it.

Could be problematic given Furbank’s latest issue.

[FKAS]

Saw on another forum that Steward is injured and might miss the 6N. First I’d heard of it.

Could be problematic given Furbank’s latest issue.

He took a knock Vs Bayonne but was still able to set up a try before coming off. I don't think there's been any announcement on it and he'd have never been travelling to SA this week anyway. I think people are speculating currently. I'm guessing we'll find out soonish as Tigers will want him back to face Quins next weekend if fit.

[Mikey Brown]

Is Carpenter fit? Has Arundell actually played fullback in the last couple of seasons?

[FKAS]

Is Carpenter fit? Has Arundell actually played fullback in the last couple of seasons?

Yes and March 2024 for Arundell as a fullback.

[FKAS]

Radwan has had ankle surgery and apparently out for two months. No chance of him appearing this 6N.

[Captainhaircut]

Baxter out of Wales match apparently.

Not good considering tighthead situation. We’re now likely going to have limited prop impact on the bench.

Obano or Rodd and Fasogbon or Davison?

[Puja]

Baxter out of Wales match apparently.

Not good considering tighthead situation. We’re now likely going to have limited prop impact on the bench.

Obano or Rodd and Fasogbon or Davison?

That's annoying. I am a big Rodd fan however and won't be sad at him getting more gametime. He's such a talented player around the pitch and that game against South Africa where he and Blamire held their own against RWC winners tells you what you need to know about his scrummaging. Might not ever be as destructive as Baxter, but he's probably our best at not going backwards.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Baxter is a big loss. However, I rate Rodd and Obano so it’s not a total disaster. I think the current pecking order is correct, but I can see an upside in them getting more game time.

The most interesting piece may be whether Genge starts or not? Given the tighthead situation, I’d probably have him on the bench so that he comes on with the inexperienced player on the other side of the scrum. Wales probably start with Assiratti - I’d like to think Rodd or Obano can handle him quite comfortably. If they stick with Griffin in the 18 shirt, I’d fully expect Genge to dominate.

I think Baxter’s industry and effectiveness in defence will be missed, but Obano or Rodd are possibly a little more impactful in the loose.

Hopefully we’ll have him back for Scotland.

[Oakboy]

Yes, interesting thought about Genge starting or not. I can't get my head around the current thinking of the '23 man game'. I'd want the best player in any position to do 60 minutes rather than 20. Against Wales especially should we not aim to be out of sight by 60? Also, if a player is not struggling physically why would you take him off at all? I think the current fashion needs a re-think.

[Puja]

Yes, interesting thought about Genge starting or not. I can't get my head around the current thinking of the '23 man game'. I'd want the best player in any position to do 60 minutes rather than 20. Against Wales especially should we not aim to be out of sight by 60? Also, if a player is not struggling physically why would you take him off at all? I think the current fashion needs a re-think.

If there's not a huge difference between the quality of players, then I can definitely understand the trend of "putting your best player on the bench to target the opposition being tired". It's like a non-accidental version of the thing that we used to do with BillyV and Ben Morgan where the sub always looked like a superstar coming on to blast tired bodies out of the way. And the idea of Genge versus Griffin, on current form especially? Heheheh

However, with Baxter being out, I think the gap between Rodd and Genge is large enough that I'd lean back towards your argument that the better player should play more minutes. Plus Rodd is dynamic enough that he's a good player to bring off the bench. The only exception to this would be if we know that Baxter is definitely back for Scotland, and so we probably wouldn't want to be messing with Genge's role too much for a game that, as you said, we should be hopeful of taking comfortably.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. However, I also think it’s worth considering the props as a partnership. I’m angling towards Genge coming off the bench to balance out the fact that our 18 will be very inexperienced.

[FKAS]

Yes, interesting thought about Genge starting or not. I can't get my head around the current thinking of the '23 man game'. I'd want the best player in any position to do 60 minutes rather than 20. Against Wales especially should we not aim to be out of sight by 60? Also, if a player is not struggling physically why would you take him off at all? I think the current fashion needs a re-think.

When you've got players with only a small difference in ability then player A with 60 mins in his legs won't be better than player B who's fresh.

I'd imagine there's been plenty of modeling done showing the sweet spot of performance for props Vs minutes played. South Africa certainly demonstrated in that tight games being able to bring on fresh props of at least equal quality to the starters for the majority of the second half created critical momentum.

The issue England now is that there's a notable drop off between the first and second choice props. Baxter and Heyes being slightly behind Genge and Stuart allowed our slightly better props to come off the bench for the final 30 as the opposition tired and do the damage. Are we backing Rodd and Fasogbon to do a solid 50 mins before Genge and Heyes come on in the 6N? Probably not.

[Which Tyler]

And the idea of Genge versus Griffin, on current form especially?

Who'd get up for it more?
Genge, the Bristolian with a chip on his shoulder, up against the Welsh Bath boy?
Or Obano, the gnarled old prop, up against his team mate / apprentice on the other side?