What you think ...two matches left.

[Numbers]

We coughed the ball up far to many times in the second half, every time we got down to their 22 it seemed. Irrespective of tactics if you don't look after the ball in contact then you aren't going to win games.

Had we been more effective at retaining the ball in those areas we may well have won, but not pretty...

[hawkaye]

And that's just the half of it. Giving away needless penalties, 1/2 spilling the ball, AWJ blocking, Webb pulling back the defender .... none the coach's fault.

[Sandydragon]

If Howley assumes that keeping the same team is going to win us one of the last games, then that must surely be as big a risk as making a small number of changes? Its not as if we lost to Scotland on iffy calls, we were totally outplayed and in truth have been substandard all season.

[Sandydragon]

We coughed the ball up far to many times in the second half, every time we got down to their 22 it seemed. Irrespective of tactics if you don't look after the ball in contact then you aren't going to win games.

Had we been more effective at retaining the ball in those areas we may well have won, but not pretty...

Players making mistakes isn't Howleys fault (although he keeps on picking players who are struggling). But our inability to break down defences is very much his problem. That and the seeming state of confusion most of our players operate in which is also his issue to address.

[hawkaye]

We were outplayed in the 2nd half not in the first. Scotland were not great; we gifted them the game through poor decisions, not protecting possession and stupid penalties.

[wayneha50]

We coughed the ball up far to many times in the second half, every time we got down to their 22 it seemed. Irrespective of tactics if you don't look after the ball in contact then you aren't going to win games.

Had we been more effective at retaining the ball in those areas we may well have won, but not pretty...

Coughing the ball up so often though is probably as a result of predictable, slow attacking which invariably involves running into 2/3/4 waiting tacklers though. We rarely do anything unexpected or unpredictable. Our try came from a quick pen which I think is the first one I've seen us do in about 2 years, if not longer.

[Numbers]

We coughed the ball up far to many times in the second half, every time we got down to their 22 it seemed. Irrespective of tactics if you don't look after the ball in contact then you aren't going to win games.

Had we been more effective at retaining the ball in those areas we may well have won, but not pretty...

Players making mistakes isn't Howleys fault (although he keeps on picking players who are struggling). But our inability to break down defences is very much his problem. That and the seeming state of confusion most of our players operate in which is also his issue to address.

You won't break down defences when you can't retain possession through a few phases to cause them to quickly scramble their defence and then gaps and mismatches appear.

I don't know what you mean regarding confusion.

Don't get me wrong, I have criticised Howley for his team selection and not picking Sam Davies ad nauseum, the second half performance was not his issue tho, if so how do you explain why we were the dominant team in the first half with the same personnel and tactics.

Another contributing factor to our loss was losing the aerial battle, why we can't/won't change our kicking tactics when this is the case is a mystery.

[Sandydragon]

I mean players looking like the game plan confuses, or perhaps frustrates, them. The players aren't playing with any kind of confidence and it feels like we are stuck between 2 philosophies - we have stated a desire to attack more but are still risk adverse.

Against England we kept the ball for sustained periods and got nowhere. I recall double figure phases in the second half which resulted in no points - the attack was still too easily read by the English defence. We are still too predictable and that I do blame on Howley.

[Numbers]

I mean players looking like the game plan confuses, or perhaps frustrates, them. The players aren't playing with any kind of confidence and it feels like we are stuck between 2 philosophies - we have stated a desire to attack more but are still risk adverse.

Against England we kept the ball for sustained periods and got nowhere. I recall double figure phases in the second half which resulted in no points - the attack was still too easily read by the English defence. We are still too predictable and that I do blame on Howley.

We aren't generating anything like the speed of possession at the ruck that other teams are, this is a big factor in why we aren't scoring many tries as the defence has plenty of time to realign. I'm pretty sure that would fall under the remit of one of the other coaches rather than Howley as he is an overseer of the other coaches, his only real input is team selection and tactics (both of which I am happy to criticise him for).

We need to sort these basic skills asap, there was an interesting stat of how many rucks we have to hit per try on Scrum V, I can't remember the exact figures but it suggested we are hitting twice as many as all other 6 nations teams, this because our clearout is poor and we aren't generating quick enough ball.

[Sandydragon]

Basic skills are an aissue, and I agree that I wouldn't blame Howley for them (although our handling for our try on Saturday was spot on). But in the England match we secured a significant amount of quality possession, and then sent a single attacker trucking up into the defence. Or we give the ball to North when he is standing still with 2 defenders ahead of him. Our tactics are poor, even when we come out firing on all cylinders, like we did against England.

[hawkaye]

We shipped 20 points in the 2nd half so defence was as big an issue as attack. We threw away possession time and again; we gave away field position with silly penalties, we made poor decisions, tried to force the play too often. The loss owed far less to unimaginative attack and much more to rank poor basic play and decisions. The team are quite capable of scoring good tries as against England and Scotland providing they make the right calls and execute them. Get the basics sorted; keep the scoreboard moving by taking penalties every time while there is plenty of time on the board.

[Numbers]

We shipped 20 points in the 2nd half so defence was as big an issue as attack. We threw away possession time and again; we gave away field position with silly penalties, we made poor decisions, tried to force the play too often. The loss owed far less to unimaginative attack and much more to rank poor basic play and decisions. The team are quite capable of scoring good tries as against England and Scotland providing they make the right calls and execute them. Get the basics sorted; keep the scoreboard moving by taking penalties every time while there is plenty of time on the board.

To be fair we the two tries scored on either flank were avoidable, North stuck in no-mans land and Liam Williams drawn off his wing by a dummy runner when he should have trusted the inside defence, Cuthbertesque.

[hawkaye]

North's defence has become an issue. Seems to get stood up so often now. I thought the try when LW came inside could have been called for blocking; but the defenders did go to the dummy runner so not complaining.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

2 from 23 . Thank you for making my point for me. I was referring to the players selected not possibles.

They aren't the only players from Scarlets in the back line never mind the 23. The Scarlets aren't the only team that plays in a different way to Gatland. You only think he made his point for you because as he said you don't watch any regional rugby.

Howley was never going to be - or going to be allowed to be - revolutionary. He's an interim head coach with no possibility of being kept on in the job and knowledge of exactly who is going to be taking over and exactly what their coaching methods are. Even if he were allowed to try to develop the team in a completely new direction for 9 months, would it be in the best interests of the team to take that completely new tack only to revert back?

And I don't see that in individual players, bosh & run straight and not much else. Creative thinking isn't there, heads up playing goes out the window as soon as they put on a Welsh jersey?

You don't see it because you don't watch the pro 12.

[ALunpg]

Yes, I agree about the rankings (we managed fine in the group of death last time ), but I can afford to take a long-term view. Tragically, Howley's main objective now is to stay in the top 8, otherwise Gatland and the WRU will be seriously unahappy.

There's still reason to make changes though because IMO we won't beat Ireland playing as we have been. We simply won't score enough points.

Yes..agreed..but the critical changes have to be tactical as well as people...what game plan are we going to use sedate and controlled ..or move it wide quickly from 1st phase all on the gainline.?

We have to put Ireland off their stride ..keep doing a change up ... do not let them settle into their gameplan... in many ways do an Irish on the Irish at least for 20 minutes.

[Lord Lucan]

Howler is out of his depth, like Shane Williams said he should have experimented in the Autumn, but if he was too terrified to make changes then, how can we expect him to do it now for Ireland and France. He will just carry on hoping things work out by themselves, he's too conservative and afraid to make changes, he's like a rabbit trapped in the headlights, look how long he has been with Wales, yet he is still acting like a coach doing his apprenticeship.
At the first opportunity the whole lot of them need turfing out on their ear, Gatland is just as much to blame, he has stuck with these guys even though most people wanted to see new faces in the coaching set up. We've had some very good times with them, but they have taken Wales as far as they can, time for change, we will just get the same old, same old, until they are all gone.
Can't see us winning either of the last two games.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Jenkins: It will be a strong team picked against Ireland. A lot of these players have had fantastic careers for Wales. Everyone has their off days and we had one in the second half in Murrayfield when not up to standards.

Ok, so it was all the players' fault, but we'll be picking them again. Great. I'm sure they're all "chomping at the bit to redeem 'emselves".

Wake me up after the next world cup, maybe we'll make the requisite hard decisions then.

[Nightynight]

They aren't the only players from Scarlets in the back line never mind the 23. The Scarlets aren't the only team that plays in a different way to Gatland. You only think he made his point for you because as he said you don't watch any regional rugby.

Howley was never going to be - or going to be allowed to be - revolutionary. He's an interim head coach with no possibility of being kept on in the job and knowledge of exactly who is going to be taking over and exactly what their coaching methods are. Even if he were allowed to try to develop the team in a completely new direction for 9 months, would it be in the best interests of the team to take that completely new tack only to revert back?

And I don't see that in individual players, bosh & run straight and not much else. Creative thinking isn't there, heads up playing goes out the window as soon as they put on a Welsh jersey?

You don't see it because you don't watch the pro 12.

Yes I do, team style and individuals players are somewhat different, the Welsh selection picks the same players for the same style, the AI's saw Wales try a different (diamond style) backs attacking option, this seems to have dropped back to run and bosh/ bosh and run in this 6N. Didn't work because of the player selection.

The fundamental is this, if they play a different style at club, why are they playing the gatland style in a Welsh jersey and can't adapt on the pitch?

The same could be pointed at England, however how many prem. teams play a 2nd fly half in the 12or 13 position... quite a few actually. Wales still play bosh merchants in those positions and that's what they play in a red jersey and at club level. The better talented footballers are overlooked in the backline because of a love affair with North and halfpenny who have become quite limited and overrated in the the last 2 years.

[Sandydragon]

Jenkins: It will be a strong team picked against Ireland. A lot of these players have had fantastic careers for Wales. Everyone has their off days and we had one in the second half in Murrayfield when not up to standards.

Ok, so it was all the players' fault, but we'll be picking them again. Great. I'm sure they're all "chomping at the bit to redeem 'emselves".

Wake me up after the next world cup, maybe we'll make the requisite hard decisions then.

Highly likely to be exactly the same team. If we lose, and let's be fair that's the most likely outcome, then howler will take some serious stick.

[Lord Lucan]

How many chances to "redeem themselves" have this bunch of players had? I've lost count.

[ALunpg]

Jenkins: It will be a strong team picked against Ireland. A lot of these players have had fantastic careers for Wales. Everyone has their off days and we had one in the second half in Murrayfield when not up to standards.

Ok, so it was all the players' fault, but we'll be picking them again. Great. I'm sure they're all "chomping at the bit to redeem 'emselves".

Wake me up after the next world cup, maybe we'll make the requisite hard decisions then.

Just after the team are on the plane back to the UK ...

[Digby]

It's a good physical team with some really good options on the wing, but it lacks some carriers in the pack, and it lacks passing in midfield. Not easy to how the carriers in the pack is addressed, maybe drop Warbs for Faletau and shunt Moriarty to 6, maybe try to get a little more from Francis, I'm pretty sure Jake Ball isn't part of the answer but there mayn't be anyone better.

As for the lack of passing in midfield it would seem to only viable alternative is Roberts, and that doesn't change much. But Gats is sold you have to be big so...

[Sandydragon]

It's a good physical team with some really good options on the wing, but it lacks some carriers in the pack, and it lacks passing in midfield. Not easy to how the carriers in the pack is addressed, maybe drop Warbs for Faletau and shunt Moriarty to 6, maybe try to get a little more from Francis, I'm pretty sure Jake Ball isn't part of the answer but there mayn't be anyone better.

As for the lack of passing in midfield it would seem to only viable alternative is Roberts, and that doesn't change much. But Gats is sold you have to be big so...

Ashley Beck or Owen Williams. To be fair to Scott, his passing was pretty good for out try on Saturday. But Sam Davies cant influence much when our backline is playing so deep. JD2 taking the ball 10m behind the advantage line FFS!

[Digby]

I'd play Davies and set up the team how Davies wants it. But I just can't see both those things happening, maybe, just maybe they'd pick Davies, but as you note I think they'd basically pick him in a system that's set up to make his life hard.

I've not seen enough of Beck, he hasn't in the past impressed me much but there are good reports this season, and if that's Owen William from Leicester then he doesn't to me look anything but a solid club player

[Numbers]

I'd play Davies and set up the team how Davies wants it. But I just can't see both those things happening, maybe, just maybe they'd pick Davies, but as you note I think they'd basically pick him in a system that's set up to make his life hard.

I've not seen enough of Beck, he hasn't in the past impressed me much but there are good reports this season, and if that's Owen William from Leicester then he doesn't to me look anything but a solid club player

Agreed, Beck is playing well at the moment tho I don't think there is any issue with Scott Williams's distribution just the tactics. Davies really needs to start.