England vs Argentina

[FKAS]

What the fuck are we doing?

Ah the question we ask after every England game these days.

[Oakboy]

Mr Jones said, "You can't put your finger on what went wrong."

What the fuck are we paying him for, then? I suppose it's some sort of progress if he at least admits that something DID go wrong.

[Lizard]

I didn’t see the game but when I checked the result this morning (NZ time) I was surprised to see that Eddie J had been beaten by a part-time League coach.

[Mikey Brown]

Were you genuinely though?

[Banquo]

That was a witless, ill disciplined, lacklustre all round effort. Argentina won by executing a nice try off first phase, cottoning on to a loose ball and kicking penalties we generously donated.
We thought we could just power through them without the need to actually try and play a bit. Our "attack" was pitiful at times.

Yep, it was the stupidity that ground my gears the most.

which bit? The RFU retaining Jones, Jones's selection/tactics, Farrell at 12, or the ill-discipline?

the last

[Lizard]

Were you genuinely though?

In my prediction comp I said England would win by 13. This was the only result I got wrong.

I was actually at Twickenham in 2006 for the Pumas last win there. Maybe I should have known better?

[Banquo]

Good old Faz- 2 carries for 2 yards, missed his only tackle, couldn't get his team to stop giving away dumbass pens despite pep talk, and handed out a crucial try. There seemed zero connection with Smith.

Got his kicks tho.

[p/d]

Thankfully he did the full 80.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

[Mikey Brown]

Good old Faz- 2 carries for 2 yards, missed his only tackle, couldn't get his team to stop giving away dumbass pens despite pep talk, and handed out a crucial try. There seemed zero connection with Smith.

Got his kicks tho.

And the only realistic fix is, somehow... 'promote' him to fly-half and sole creative driver of the team.

I don't understand how we got to this point, but even as a massive Smith fan I'd be fine resigning him to the bench until we can get it together in midfield. I've defended his use at 12 (given he must play) for quite a while but the pendulum seems to have swung back towards him being less of a hindrance at 10 than 12.

Though on that note- when did anyone remember Tuilagi last making a big impression on a game, outside of the injury/try v SA? I'm not sure who else we'd try. Nobody ever seemed convinced by Slade there.

[Banquo]

Good old Faz- 2 carries for 2 yards, missed his only tackle, couldn't get his team to stop giving away dumbass pens despite pep talk, and handed out a crucial try. There seemed zero connection with Smith.

Got his kicks tho.

And the only realistic fix is, somehow... 'promote' him to fly-half and sole creative driver of the team.

I don't understand how we got to this point, but even as a massive Smith fan I'd be fine resigning him to the bench until we can get it together in midfield. I've defended his use at 12 (given he must play) for quite a while but the pendulum seems to have swung back towards him being less of a hindrance at 10 than 12.

Though on that note- when did anyone remember Tuilagi last making a big impression on a game, outside of the injury/try v SA? I'm not sure who else we'd try. Nobody ever seemed convinced by Slade there.

given how rarely Manu plays, and then outside Youngs ...10.....Farrell not sure there can be much in the way of opportunity to shine. See also Slade / other outside backs.

[Banquo]

straw clutching but we did rack a lot of yardage, possession and territory :)

[Mikey Brown]

Just watched that first Argentina try back and I don't think it's necessarily awful defence from England is it?

The movement to get their whole backline shifted one out from ours, with Montoya essentially playing 9, was very neat I thought. You see so many telegraphed/half-arsed screen plays it was nice to see it done that well off a set piece, perfectly committing Nowell and leaving Steward way too much to do.

[Beasties]

Just watched that first Argentina try back and I don't think it's necessarily awful defence from England is it?

The movement to get their whole backline shifted one out from ours, with Montoya essentially playing 9, was very neat I thought. You see so many telegraphed/half-arsed screen plays it was nice to see it done that well off a set piece, perfectly committing Nowell and leaving Steward way too much to do.

The fact it was done at pace might’ve been why it was so effective, and so lovely to watch. All our attempts at backline moves were so far behind the gainline Arg must’ve been pissing themselves for the whole match. We had absolutely zero threat today. No surprise at all given the 9-13 selection.

As a Wasps fan I didn’t think I could be any more depressed. I was wrong. That was utterly dire.

[Danno]

As grim as Danno’s hangover.

Certainly makes me want to commit a similar war crime on my toilet

[fivepointer]

Manu Tuilagi made his first England appearance in 12 months but gingerly made way in the second half and Jones revealed afterwards he was hampered by a blister. He is set to be assessed before a decision is made on his availability to face Japan. “He had a blister so that affected his gait a little bit,” added Jones. “He’s a bit sore from the blister. We’re not overly concerned at this stage but we may be tomorrow.”

A blister, really?

[p/d]

Just watched that first Argentina try back and I don't think it's necessarily awful defence from England is it?

The movement to get their whole backline shifted one out from ours, with Montoya essentially playing 9, was very neat I thought. You see so many telegraphed/half-arsed screen plays it was nice to see it done that well off a set piece, perfectly committing Nowell and leaving Steward way too much to do.

Think Manu and Nowell were at fault. Poor bit of play from two senior players.

Though it could have been due to the blister

[Oakboy]

Manu Tuilagi made his first England appearance in 12 months but gingerly made way in the second half and Jones revealed afterwards he was hampered by a blister. He is set to be assessed before a decision is made on his availability to face Japan. “He had a blister so that affected his gait a little bit,” added Jones. “He’s a bit sore from the blister. We’re not overly concerned at this stage but we may be tomorrow.”

A blister, really?

Quite. A blister is down to bad preparation by the player. Blisters are preventable and tantamount to self-inflicted injury. How many times has the silly sod worn rugby boots?

[TheNomad]

So bad. So, so bad.

The issue is that there are players available who can help kick start a proper fix, but we know it won't happen, mainly because we know (1) how unbelievably stubborn/fixated Eddie is; and (2) any team seems dead set on accommodating Farrell.

I think before anything constructive can happen, there following needs to be recognised: this group of players, with this management team, stands zero chance at the World Cup.

Once the RFU have accepted that, we can approach a rebuild with something of a blank canvass. The pack I don't think we're too far away from, as regards player selection. We should really start to better blend the likes of (I realise some of these we can't yet due to injury or availability...) T Hill, Willis, Mercer, Chessum, VRR and consider removing the likes of the Vunipolas. But we're not a million miles off.

But the backs we need a complete re-think of the type of team we are, in my opinion.

Forget players like Youngs, Farrell, Manu, Nowell...maybe even the likes of May and Slade (both great players, but for how long?) and focus on next generation, including (but obviously not limited to) the likes of...

JVP, Quirke, Mitchell
Smith x2, Atkinson
Lawrence, Marchant
OHC, Cokanasiga, Arundell, Freeman, Steward

...and start to take a few punts on the likes of Carpenter, Hartley, etc.

It needs a real re-think. I won't say Sunday was a wake up call, because we've all seen it coming, but I would hope it would serve as some sort of catalyst for the RFU to consider that we need a major change.

We are MILES off

[Banquo]

Just watched that first Argentina try back and I don't think it's necessarily awful defence from England is it?

The movement to get their whole backline shifted one out from ours, with Montoya essentially playing 9, was very neat I thought. You see so many telegraphed/half-arsed screen plays it was nice to see it done that well off a set piece, perfectly committing Nowell and leaving Steward way too much to do.

Too narrow, bit in early, Nowell was planted square and not enough pace to drift out successfully (mind he did stumble and was blocked a bit). It was a very straightforward if well executed move. System fail for sure, and individual mistakes too.

[Beasties]

It was so bad even Flatman had a poor game.

[fivepointer]

It was so bad even Flatman had a poor game.

Ha! Think you're right. He wasnt at his sparkling best. The whole occasion felt a bit lifeless.

One thing more to comment upon, and i'm sure i've touched on this aspect before with Jones, is the use, or non use, of subs. a 6:2 split immediately limits your options but having 2 guys unused and to put one on with 5 minutes left is hardly the best use of your resources.
Okay its plain he only picked Singleton to bring on in an emergency but its not as if LCD was playing out of his skin.

[jimKRFC]

I don't normally bother to watch England games but caught the last 25 minutes and it was so aimless and stodgy...

Just glad I have a vague connection to Contepomi to fall back on justify supporting Argentina!

[Banquo]

It was so bad even Flatman had a poor game.

Ha! Think you're right. He wasnt at his sparkling best. The whole occasion felt a bit lifeless.

One thing more to comment upon, and i'm sure i've touched on this aspect before with Jones, is the use, or non use, of subs. a 6:2 split immediately limits your options but having 2 guys unused and to put one on with 5 minutes left is hardly the best use of your resources.
Okay its plain he only picked Singleton to bring on in an emergency but its not as if LCD was playing out of his skin.

LCD's discipline was awful. And totally agree- what was the point of picking 6 forwards and not using all of them 9understand the Singleton one tho).

[p/d]

Jones putting faith in Argentina to cough up a kickable penalty rather than making smart changes to wrestle the game away from them.

[Stom]

I don't get the point of picking Smith if you're going to ask him to do that. If that's the gameplan, there's no need for him there, just pick your dirty wank stain at 10 and be done with it. Don't pick Dombrandt when he's fit, either, and Murley doesn't get a look in. In fact, just ignore Quins, we don't want to be sullied with that utter crap.

Seriously, it's paint by numbers rugby. It's like Eddie has done all this statistical analysis...but his analysis was on the West Sussex u12s and he didn't realise that 'give it to the big guy' isn't a viable tactic for grown men, no matter what Mark Evans would have you believe.