The 2020 Rugby Cha- Tri Nations, Sort Of... Thread

[cashead]

For the first time ever, the entirety of the Rugby Championship Tri Nations Edition will be played entirely in the one country, with Australia nabbing the hosting rights.

Usually, this entire thing would be in the closing stages, with the All Blacks generally securing a win right about now, often with a Bobby Dazzler of a game in South Africa. Of course, that's not happening, with South Africa making the difficult call of pulling out of this year's competition due to safety concerns, travel restrictions, and player welfare concerns - not an easy call to make, but considering the circumstances, it's hard to begrudge them for making that decision. It also means that for the first time in quite some time, the Springboks are unlikely to play at all in a calendar year. This also means that the Freedom Cup (held by New Zealand) and the Mandela Challenge Plate (held by South Africa) will not be contested this year, while the Bledisloe Cup and Puma Trophy could still potentially change hands.

Fixtures
Week 1 - 31/10/2020
Australia 5 - 43 New Zealand - ANZ Stadium, Sydney
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Trophy contested: Bledisloe Cup

Week 2 - 7/11/2020
Australia 24 - 22 New Zealand - Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Trophy contested: Bledisloe Cup

Week 3 - 14/11/2020
New Zealand 15 - 25 Argentina - Bankwest Stadium, Sydney
Referee: Angus Gardiner (Australia)

Week 4 - 21/11/2020
Australia 15 - 15 Argentina - McDonald Jones Stadium, Newcastle
Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Trophy contested: Puma Trophy

Week 5 - 28/11/2020
Argentina 0 - 38 New Zealand - McDonald Jones Stadium, Newcastle
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)

Week 6 - 5/12/2020
Australia v. Argentina - Bankwest Stadium, Sydney
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Trophy contested: Puma Trophy

[cashead]

Pumas squad
Hooker
Facundo Bosch (La Rochelle)
Jose Luis Gonzalez (Ceibos)
Julian Montoya (Western Force)
Santiago Socino (Jaguares) lol, suspended for being an anti-Semitic fuck.

Props
Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (Jaguares)
Santiago Medrano (Western Force)
Mayco Vivas (Jaguares)
Federico Wegrzyn (Ceibos)
Ignacio Calles (Pau)
Francisco Gomez Kodela (Lyon)
Lucio Sordoni (Jaguares)
Juan Pablo Zeiss (Jaguares)

Locks
Matias Alemanno (Gloucester)
Ignacio Calas (Jaguares)
Rodrigo Fernandez Criado (Ceibos)
Lucas Paulos (Jaguares)
Guido Petti (Bordeaux Begles) lol suspended

Loose Forwards
Rodrigo Bruni (Jaguares)
Juan Martin Gonzalez (Pumitas)
Francisco Gorrissen (Jaguares)
Santiago Grondona (Jaguares)
Facundo Isa (Toulon)
Marcos Kremer (Stade Francais)
Tomas Lezana (Pumitas)
Pablo Matera (Captain, Stade Francais) adios, racist fuck.
Joaquín Oviedo (Pumitas)

Halfbacks
Gonzalo Bertranou (Jaguares)
Tomas Cubelli (Western Force)
Felipe Ezcurra (Jaguares)

Five-Eighths
Tomas Albornoz (Jaguares)
Domingo Miotti (Jaguares)
Nicolas Sanchez (Stade Francais)

Midfield
Santiago Chocobares (Jaguares)
Lucio Cinti (Argentina Sevens)
Jeronimo de la Fuente (Perpignan)
Juan Cruz Mallia (Jaguares)
Lucas Mensa (Valence Romans)
Matias Moroni (Leicester Tigers)
Matias Orlando (Newcastle Falcons)

Back Three Quarters
Emiliano Boffelli (Jaguares)
Sebastian Cancelliere (Jaguares)
Santiago Carreras (Jaguares)
Santiago Cordero (Bordeaux Begles)
Bautista Delguy (Jaguares)
Juan Imhoff (Racing 92)
Ramiro Moyano (Toulon)

[cashead]

Wallabies squad
Hookers
Folau Fainga'a (Brumbies)
Tom Horton (NSW Waratahs)
Brandon Paenga-Amosa (Queensland Reds)
Jordan Uelese (Melbourne Rebels)


Props
Jermaine Ainsley (Melbourne Rebels)
Allan Alaalatoa (Brumbies)
Angus Bell (NSW Waratahs)
Pone Fa’amausili (Melbourne Rebels)
Harry Johnson-Holmes (NSW Waratahs)
Scott Sio (Brumbies)
James Slipper (Brumbies)
Taniela Tupou (Queensland Reds)


Locks
Ned Hanigan (NSW Waratahs)
Trevor Hosea (Melbourne Rebels)
Matt Philip (Melbourne Rebels)
Lukhan Salakaia-Loto (Queensland Reds)
Rob Simmons (NSW Waratahs)


Loose Forwards
Michael Hooper (NSW Waratahs)
Fraser McReight (Queensland Reds)
Pete Samu (Brumbies)
Lachie Swinton (NSW Waratahs)
Rob Valetini (Brumbies)
Harry Wilson (Queensland Reds)
Liam Wright (Queensland Reds)


Halfbacks
Jake Gordon (NSW Waratahs)
Tate McDermott (Queensland Reds)
Joe Powell (Brumbies)
Nic White (Brumbies)


Five-Eighths
Will Harrison (NSW Waratahs)
Noah Lolesio (Brumbies)
Matt Toomua (Melbourne Rebels)


Midfielders
Hunter Paisami (Queensland Reds)
Len Ikitau (Brumbies)
Irae Simone (Brumbies)
Tom Wright (Brumbies)


Back Three-quarters
Tom Banks (Brumbies)
Filipo Daugunu (Queensland Reds)
Dane Haylett-Petty (Melbourne Rebels)
Reece Hodge (Melbourne Rebels)
Marika Korobiete (Melbourne Rebels)
Jack Maddocks (NSW Waratahs)
Jordan Petaia (Queensland Reds)
James Ramm (NSW Waratahs)

Utility Back
James O'Connor (Queensland Reds)

[cashead]

All Blacks squad
Hookers:
Asafo Aumua (Hurricanes/Wellington)
Dane Coles (Hurricanes/Wellington)
Codie Taylor (Crusaders/Canterbury)

Props:
George Bower (Crusaders/Otago)
Alex Hodgman (Blues/Auckland)
Nepo Laulala (Chiefs/Counties Manukau)
Tyrel Lomax (Hurricanes/Tasman)
Joe Moody (Crusaders/Canterbury)
Karl Tu'inukuafe (Blues/North Harbour)
Ofa Tu'ungafasi (Blues/Auckland)

Locks:
Scott Barrett (Crusaders/Taranaki)
Mitchell Dunshea (Crusaders/Canterbury)
Patrick Tupulotu (Blues/Auckland)
Tupou Va'ai (Chiefs/Taranaki)
Sam Whitelock (Crusaders/Canterbury)

Loose Forwards
Sam Cane (Captain, Chiefs/Bay of Plenty)
Shannon Frizzel (Highlanders/Tasman)
Cullen Grace (Crusaders/Canterbury)
Akira Ioane (Blues/Auckland)
Dalton Papali'i (Blues/Auckland)
DuPlessis Kirifi (Hurricanes/Wellington)
Ardie Savea (Hurricanes/Wellington)
Hoskins Sotutu (Blues/Auckland)

Halfbacks:
TJ Perenara (Hurricanes/Wellington)
Aaron Smith (Highlanders/Manawatu)
Brad Weber (Chiefs/Hawke's Bay)

Five-Eighths
Beauden Barrett (Blues/Taranaki)
Richie Mo'unga (Crusaders/Canterbury)

Midfield
Jack Goodhue (Crusaders/Northland)
Rieko Ioane (Blues/Auckland)
Ngani Laumape (Hurricanes/Manawatu)
Anton Lienert-Brown (Chiefs/Waikato)
Peter Umaga-Jensen (Hurricanes/Wellington)

Back Three Quarters
George Bridge (Crusaders/Canterbury)
Caleb Clarke (Blues/Auckland)
Will Jordan (Crusaders/Tasman)
Damian McKenzie (Chiefs/Waikato)
Sevu Reece (Crusaders/Tasman)

Utility Back
Jordie Barrett (Hurricanes/Taranaki)

[Puja]

Well, that's a turnup for the books. What happened? And is New Zealand now in mourning after your worst losing streak in about 8 years?

Puja

[morepork]

Bullied 2 weeks in a row. Fozzie, what have you done...

[paddy no 11]

Matera and kremmer just in destruction mode, Montoya and the centres excellent and Sanchez ran the show

The only thing nz appear to be working on is winning restarts, will be changing coach next year

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

[cashead]

As someone who was willing to give Foster a chance, this has been absolutely frustrating to watch. They had exactly 1 game where they were completely switched on (the Bledisloe decider in Sydney) and have clearly switched off since.

The Brisbane loss, you could make an excuse for - as well as the Wallabies were playing, it was just as much a bizarre test match that went off the rails in many ways. The loss to Argentina, there's just no excuse for that.

They were well-contained by a fired up Argies defence that saw most of the tight five just wilt away, the line-out went to shit when Codie Taylor came on, and IMO, the double openside tactic of Cavea - which felt like the ABs were following trends rather than establishing them - failed big time. Frizell was also largely anonymous, other than to get suckered into some argy-bargy alongside Coles every now and then.

They were also playing like it was a parody of Warrenball, just running at the defenders, and then spinning it out wide under pressure.

The All Blacks need to deliver an actual, settling, statement performance - something that says "chill out, we got this covered" after a tough period. Something like the 2004 win against France, or either the final test of the Tri Nations in 2009 in Wellington against the Wallabies or the Marseilles test against France in that same year - a performance that sets the blueprint for the next cycle.

And even then, I'd like to see Razor folded into the coaching set-up in the Wayne Smith roll (which should have happened when Foster was appointed anyway).

[cashead]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

[Puja]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

You're still 3rd, if I'm calculating correctly. You're a good long distance away from France and Ireland (who are neck and neck in 4th and 5th) and won't drop below either of them unless you lose by >16pts against Argentina next time out.

Puja

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

[Lizard]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ
Sends NZ to its lowest point ever in the rankings (4th, I think)
First consecutive losses since 2011 (which was in TRC leading up to a RWC win, so almost excusable)
First consecutive losses involving a non-AUS/SAF team since RWC1999 (France SF/SA Bronze final)
First consecutive losses not involving the Springboks since 1993-94 (Eng, Fra, Fra)

So this is pretty bad. Given the quality of the opposition, it's getting towards the nadir of 1998's Five-losses-in-a-row, under Hart/Randell. If we don't smash the Pumas in a fortnight, we've got real problems.

You're still 3rd, if I'm calculating correctly. You're a good long distance away from France and Ireland (who are neck and neck in 4th and 5th) and won't drop below either of them unless you lose by >16pts against Argentina next time out.

Puja

Correct, thanks. Just our equal lowest position then.

[Cameo]

The strange thing was that it didn't come against the run of play at all. Argentina just contained NZ very well. At the moment it seems like first up tackling is absolutely key against these ABs. Get that right on people like Clarke and you have a chance.

I'd still expect a comfortable win next time. Looking forward to Argentina Australia though.

Also, have Argentina been largely in camp? Is there a bit of a Japan effect?

[Spiffy]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

[morepork]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

Kieth Quinn?

[Numbers]

Argentina were very good. NZ looked disinterested and rudderless.

NZRU has to leave the old bottle of brandy and loaded revolver in his study. On-field leadership also needs to be looked at.

I'm pleased for Argentina though, they deserved it. It's a shame it was in front of a few thousand Aussies and a couple of Argie backpackers, rather than 50,000 Pumas fans at La Plata.

So let's run through it:
First loss to Argentina
Lowest ranked team to beat NZ

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

[Spiffy]

Those Argie flankers were unbelievable. Tremendous performance.
NZ should just drop the face-slappers for the next game (or more.) They behaved like a couple of girly men who should not be wearing the AB jersey.

Kieth Quinn?

Not quite. It's OK to weep - that's harmless, but not to bitch-slap your opponents, which is terribly bad form.

[Lizard]

Cane as captain is not the problem. It's unfair to put everything on him, since captaincy only works best when said captain is surrounded by a core group of on-field leaders. You look at, say, John Eales, and he had guys like David Wilson, Toutai Kefu, Gregan and Tim Horan around him. Martin Johnson, and he had Wilkinson, Dawson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood and Robinson. McCaw was surrounded by guys like Mealamu, Thorn, Kaino, Whitelock, Read, Weepu, Carter, Nonu and C Smith across two World Cups.

So, who was helping Cane out there? The issue was that the guys who should have been backing him were too busy being anonymous (that's you, Whitelock) or getting suckered into handbags (that's you, Coles).


As for your second point, Argentina had been getting close in the 9 seasons since being included in the TNs set-up, so it was bound to happen eventually. What annoys me isn't that the ABs lost, but the manner in which they did it. Just completely limp, and clueless.

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

They may be performing well now, but historically they fit in that bunch. You could have said similar about Samoa in mid-late '90s. My point is that NZ and Eng have resisted these teams even at their historic best (or maybe haven't played them enough...)

[Lizard]

Agree on all fronts. Whitelock in particular should have done more.

It's important not to sell Argentina short. They drew with us as long ago as 1985. They have multiple victories over every other major nation (SA 3, Eng 4, Wales 5, Aus 6, Ire 6, Sco 9, Fra 14, Ita 16). It's still disappointing to have lost the two outlier markers we had of 0 losses to Ireland and Argentina in relatively quick succession. There's only Scotland left now. After that, we will be in the same club as England being the only nations to have never been beaten by a non-top tier nation (e.g. Japan, Pacific Islands, USA, Canada, Namibia, Romania).

Probably good for rugby as a whole, I suppose.

Really, they beat Ireland and Scotland last year.

They may be performing well now, but historically they fit in that bunch. You could have said similar about Samoa in mid-late '90s. My point is that NZ and Eng have resisted these teams even at their historic best (or maybe haven't played them enough...)

I've checked. England beat Samoa 27-9 in late 1995 and in Samoa's next match (in 1996) NZ beat them 51-10. This was shortly Samoa's wins over Wales (1994) and QF run at RWC95, and only months before it toppled Ireland in its very next test.

NZ (69-31) and England (35-15) also beat Japan in consecutive matches in November 2018.

[morepork]

This is going to be quite a dog fight. RG are going to be fired up to back it up and I’m not convinced they can’t.

[paddy no 11]

Argentina creating very little, cut out the pens and surely beat them

[Lizard]

The thot plickens!

NZ: played 3, 6 pts
Arg: played 2, 6 ps
Aus: Played 3, 6 pts

It's anyone's tournament.

[Puja]

The thot plickens!

NZ: played 3, 6 pts
Arg: played 2, 6 ps
Aus: Played 3, 6 pts

It's anyone's tournament.

What's the tie-breaker if they're equal on points? Head-to-head or just points difference?

Puja

[Lizard]

Assuming this 3N uses the same rules as TRC did:

1st tie-breaker: most match wins overall (all teams currently on 1 win).
2nd: most match wins against the other team/s tied on the same points.
3rd: overall points difference (NZ +26, Arg +10, Aus -36)
4th: points difference across tied teams.
5th: Most tries overall (NZ 11, Aus 3, Arg 1)

If the teams cannot be separated by the above, the trophy is shared.