The Thin Blue Line

[Which Tyler]

Surely deserves a thread of its own now, especially if allowed to evolve into a discussion on all things police.

Another copper in "Mr Rapey" Couzens' unit has been charged with rape
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... tfordshire


How long until Boris U-Turns on not having a public enquiry? It's the least that needs to happen to start rebuilding trust.
Given that the unit in question is "parliamentary and diplomatic protection" - you'd have to wonder if they've got mates in high places - hence no enquiry to start with.

Would it be an over-reaction to suspend (on full pay) anyone who served in the same unit at the same time as those 2, pending an investigation? If rumours of their behaviour, and Couzens' nickname are true, but they weren't being reported, than surely any colleagues would be guilty of enabling their behaviour - at the least.

[Digby]

When I heard Javid fail to commit to a public enquiry I just laughed, because it doesn't seem avoidable so why look an arse trying to defend the indefensible, just say you support it (and you can always bodge the terms at a later point, and Boris has form for saying thanks for that but I don't believe a word of it)

I have heard from some persons in the police the nickname Mr Rape is something of a media creation, and probably social media at that. But that's not from rank and file who'd be more likely to actually know if it was a thing, was a one-time throwaway remark, or there was never any truth to it

[Which Tyler]

Talking of "Don't Trust a Copper" - current evidence locallly to me suggests that Vimes had the right of it - trust 'em with the big stuff, but not anything small that hasn't been nailed down (joking btw)
They've been parked up more-or-less outside my house for the last 3 days straight, cordoning off my driveway; where the press have parked up.
I've been bringing them a pot of tea and plate of biscuits 3-4 times a day as they get reasonable coffee and gods-awful tea.

This morning 1 of my mugs, and the milk jug have all gone AWOL!
A] Poor little me, and B] I'm sure it'll turn up

ETA: This other example really takes the biscuit!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58842137

[Sandydragon]

The police are the same as any other large institution. Mostly, there's plenty of hard working and honest coppers. But there are some awful ones who deserve to be rooted out and sacked, or criminally charged where appropriate. The problem is often that any bad apple tarnishes the whole organisation, which is exacerbated by senior management not wanting to admit to a problem because they know the perception that it will cause.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The police are the same as any other large institution. Mostly, there's plenty of hard working and honest coppers. But there are some awful ones who deserve to be rooted out and sacked, or criminally charged where appropriate. The problem is often that any bad apple tarnishes the whole organisation, which is exacerbated by senior management not wanting to admit to a problem because they know the perception that it will cause.

The literal point of the maxim "one bad apple" is that it spoils the whole barrel. If you can't largely trust police to at least be doing their best there's not much point in having them.

The police have a number of bad people who just enjoy being shits or are in it for what they can get.

The police have a number of bad police officers who don't have the first clue how to do their job.

The police have a number of officers who do have a clue but are more interested in their personal advancement than doing the work.

The police have a numberof officers who do have a clue but are more interested in preserving the institution than doing the work.

Unfortunately within police and those who politically oversee them there's fuck all incentive or inclination to do anything about these people.

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant officers, and many decent and competent ones, but at a rough guess I'd say they aren't the majority.

[Sandydragon]

The police are the same as any other large institution. Mostly, there's plenty of hard working and honest coppers. But there are some awful ones who deserve to be rooted out and sacked, or criminally charged where appropriate. The problem is often that any bad apple tarnishes the whole organisation, which is exacerbated by senior management not wanting to admit to a problem because they know the perception that it will cause.

The literal point of the maxim "one bad apple" is that it spoils the whole barrel. If you can't largely trust police to at least be doing their best there's not much point in having them.

The police have a number of bad people who just enjoy being shits or are in it for what they can get.

The police have a number of bad police officers who don't have the first clue how to do their job.

The police have a number of officers who do have a clue but are more interested in their personal advancement than doing the work.

The police have a numberof officers who do have a clue but are more interested in preserving the institution than doing the work.

Unfortunately within police and those who politically oversee them there's fuck all incentive or inclination to do anything about these people.

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant officers, and many decent and competent ones, but at a rough guess I'd say they aren't the majority.

You should hear what police officers think of lawyers.
No point having lawyers as a few dodgy apples rot the whole barrel. Or doctors. Or nurses. The police are no different to any other big organisation but unlike many they have been through decades of self analysis and improvement (allegedly). Judging the whole system by the actions of a very small number of officers is moronic.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The police are the same as any other large institution. Mostly, there's plenty of hard working and honest coppers. But there are some awful ones who deserve to be rooted out and sacked, or criminally charged where appropriate. The problem is often that any bad apple tarnishes the whole organisation, which is exacerbated by senior management not wanting to admit to a problem because they know the perception that it will cause.

The literal point of the maxim "one bad apple" is that it spoils the whole barrel. If you can't largely trust police to at least be doing their best there's not much point in having them.

The police have a number of bad people who just enjoy being shits or are in it for what they can get.

The police have a number of bad police officers who don't have the first clue how to do their job.

The police have a number of officers who do have a clue but are more interested in their personal advancement than doing the work.

The police have a numberof officers who do have a clue but are more interested in preserving the institution than doing the work.

Unfortunately within police and those who politically oversee them there's fuck all incentive or inclination to do anything about these people.

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant officers, and many decent and competent ones, but at a rough guess I'd say they aren't the majority.

You should hear what police officers think of lawyers.
No point having lawyers as a few dodgy apples rot the whole barrel. Or doctors. Or nurses. The police are no different to any other big organisation but unlike many they have been through decades of self analysis and improvement (allegedly). Judging the whole system by the actions of a very small number of officers is moronic.

And therein lies the problem. The failure to understand that policing requires trust in a way completely different from most other areas. If you get a doctor/nurse/lawyer who you don't trust you get a new one. What do you do when it's a police officer? The only thing I can think of as comparable is a judge.

(As an aside it's a pet peeve that the modern truncation of various sayings removes the entire point of of the lesson. Just one bad apple is one. Another is "the proof is in the pudding" rather than "the proof of the pudding is in the eating")

[Puja]

The literal point of the maxim "one bad apple" is that it spoils the whole barrel. If you can't largely trust police to at least be doing their best there's not much point in having them.

The police have a number of bad people who just enjoy being shits or are in it for what they can get.

The police have a number of bad police officers who don't have the first clue how to do their job.

The police have a number of officers who do have a clue but are more interested in their personal advancement than doing the work.

The police have a numberof officers who do have a clue but are more interested in preserving the institution than doing the work.

Unfortunately within police and those who politically oversee them there's fuck all incentive or inclination to do anything about these people.

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant officers, and many decent and competent ones, but at a rough guess I'd say they aren't the majority.

You should hear what police officers think of lawyers.
No point having lawyers as a few dodgy apples rot the whole barrel. Or doctors. Or nurses. The police are no different to any other big organisation but unlike many they have been through decades of self analysis and improvement (allegedly). Judging the whole system by the actions of a very small number of officers is moronic.

And therein lies the problem. The failure to understand that policing requires trust in a way completely different from most other areas. If you get a doctor/nurse/lawyer who you don't trust you get a new one. What do you do when it's a police officer? The only thing I can think of as comparable is a judge.

(As an aside it's a pet peeve that the modern truncation of various sayings removes the entire point of of the lesson. Just one bad apple is one. Another is "the proof is in the pudding" rather than "the proof of the pudding is in the eating")

I believe the current official advice is to flag down a bus.

The problem with the police force isn't "a very small number of bad officers" just in isolation anyway. There's no binary where the rapists and bigots who make the headlines are completely disconnected from the rest of the officers, who are shocked to find that there was a secret bad guy working alongside them. There are thousands who know that they're working with someone crooked or rapey or racist or bigoted who abuses their power, but it's just Dave and he's a good cop and a good guy who we go for drinks with and you don't snitch on your teammates. And there are thousands upon thousands who, might not know for certain that the guy's crooked, but know he's got a shitty attitude and probably shouldn't have the power to unilaterally decide whether someone gets arrested or not, but he's got lots of friends and it's easier not to rock the boat.

As an example, these are just the people who felt it was worth their time filing a report; I'd imagine the actual number is an order of magnitude larger at least: https://www.channel4.com/news/more-than ... ub-culture

Puja

[cashead]

You know the chorus.

[morepork]

If you think it's "one bad apple" then you should see the way the po-po union over here closes ranks every time a cop shoots someone multiple times on a hunch. They do this because they know they can hide behind qualified immunity every time, and that is a whole rotten barrel. It's an organised body, not a random assemblage of individuals. That is quite simply an abuse of privilege as is the disgusting deification of that Rittenhouse puppet. Fuck all of them.

[Sandydragon]

If you think it's "one bad apple" then you should see the way the po-po union over here closes ranks every time a cop shoots someone multiple times on a hunch. They do this because they know they can hide behind qualified immunity every time, and that is a whole rotten barrel. It's an organised body, not a random assemblage of individuals. That is quite simply an abuse of privilege as is the disgusting deification of that Rittenhouse puppet. Fuck all of them.

There is a different approach to policing in the UK compared to the US. The vast majority here do their best despite the poor funding that is an acceptance excuse for any other public sector worker.

[cashead]

If you think it's "one bad apple" then you should see the way the po-po union over here closes ranks every time a cop shoots someone multiple times on a hunch. They do this because they know they can hide behind qualified immunity every time, and that is a whole rotten barrel. It's an organised body, not a random assemblage of individuals. That is quite simply an abuse of privilege as is the disgusting deification of that Rittenhouse puppet. Fuck all of them.

There is a different approach to policing in the UK compared to the US. The vast majority here do their best despite the poor funding that is an acceptance excuse for any other public sector worker.

Is that your excuse for their disproportionate use of force against black people in the UK as well?

[cashead]

But what if disproportionate use of force against black population by British pigs is in fact a good thing? Just asking questions, everyone.

[Sandydragon]

If you think it's "one bad apple" then you should see the way the po-po union over here closes ranks every time a cop shoots someone multiple times on a hunch. They do this because they know they can hide behind qualified immunity every time, and that is a whole rotten barrel. It's an organised body, not a random assemblage of individuals. That is quite simply an abuse of privilege as is the disgusting deification of that Rittenhouse puppet. Fuck all of them.

There is a different approach to policing in the UK compared to the US. The vast majority here do their best despite the poor funding that is an acceptance excuse for any other public sector worker.

Is that your excuse for their disproportionate use of force against black people in the UK as well?

Got any context for those stats? Are black people in London more likely to be involved in violent crime due to their social conditions which is more likely to result in use of force on arrest? Because of course the police operate in a vacuum and there are no other factors to consider when looking at one statistic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sandydragon]

Any thoughts on the knife crime wave where the victims are overwhelmingly black and the reasons for that. Would that perhaps have an impact on those stats you provided?

Or you could just consider the paramilitary response of US policemen to virtually any event and compare it to the British polices mostly unarmed approach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[morepork]

I cant believe you are actually challenging the observation that black/brown peeps get fisted by the long arm of the law disproportionately more than white peeps.

[morepork]

If you think it's "one bad apple" then you should see the way the po-po union over here closes ranks every time a cop shoots someone multiple times on a hunch. They do this because they know they can hide behind qualified immunity every time, and that is a whole rotten barrel. It's an organised body, not a random assemblage of individuals. That is quite simply an abuse of privilege as is the disgusting deification of that Rittenhouse puppet. Fuck all of them.

There is a different approach to policing in the UK compared to the US. The vast majority here do their best despite the poor funding that is an acceptance excuse for any other public sector worker.

Is that your excuse for their disproportionate use of force against black people in the UK as well?

Black parents have very different conversations with their kids about the snigleys than do white parents. This is how it is. Maybe the UK po-po need some tanks?

[Sandydragon]

I cant believe you are actually challenging the observation that black/brown peeps get fisted by the long arm of the law disproportionately more than white peeps.

I’m arguing that there is a context behind the figures which is reflective of wider issues for certain racial groups which will affect how they are likely to encounter the police. Picking a statistic like that and just using it as evidence of police racism is lazy.

[cashead]

So you believe there's a perfectly acceptable reason why black people are disproportionately more likely to experience compliant handcuffing, restraint tactics, tasers, etc., than white people?

The HMICFRS' own words

In a 2016 public survey conducted by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, concern among the respondents about how frequently the police use force was relatively low. But Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic respondents had less trust in the police’s ability to use force reasonably and were more concerned about the frequency with which officers use force. This was particularly the case for Black respondents. Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people were more likely to report having experienced use of force in public spaces than in their homes, compared with White people. People who reported having direct experience of police using force on them believed that police were more ready to use excessive force and that oral communication was not attempted first. This group also lacked confidence in the complaints system. Good communication was seen as essential to preventing situations from escalating to a point where force needed to be used. While officers felt that oral commands and ‘talkdown’ methods were always used initially to manage situations, people who had experienced force felt that officers often resorted to force too quickly.

Recent research supports the views provided to the public survey and suggests that ethnicity is associated with differences in what force is being used in use of force incidents. The research found that the likelihood of officers drawing equipment or weapons and using unarmed force (but not using the equipment or weapons) was higher when the person was identified as Black than when the person was identified as White, although people perceived by the officer as Black were less likely to be injured or hospitalised. And the 2019/20 data shows that officers were more than nine times as likely to have drawn Tasers (but not discharged them) during incidents involving someone they identified as Black than during incidents involving people perceived by officers to be White. Furthermore, Black people were eight times more likely to be ‘compliant handcuffed’ than White people, and over three times more likely to have a spit and bite guard used on them than White people. The reasons for this are unclear, but it could mean that force is used on Black people with less justification than on White people. The IOPC is currently carrying out a review of Taser complaints.

[cashead]

There is a different approach to policing in the UK compared to the US. The vast majority here do their best despite the poor funding that is an acceptance excuse for any other public sector worker.

Is that your excuse for their disproportionate use of force against black people in the UK as well?

Black parents have very different conversations with their kids about the snigleys than do white parents. This is how it is. Maybe the UK po-po need some tanks?

Perhaps some torture black sites like the Chicago Police too, while they're at it?

[Sandydragon]

So you believe there's a perfectly acceptable reason why black people are disproportionately more likely to experience compliant handcuffing, restraint tactics, tasers, etc., than white people?

The HMICFRS' own words

In a 2016 public survey conducted by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, concern among the respondents about how frequently the police use force was relatively low. But Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic respondents had less trust in the police’s ability to use force reasonably and were more concerned about the frequency with which officers use force. This was particularly the case for Black respondents. Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people were more likely to report having experienced use of force in public spaces than in their homes, compared with White people. People who reported having direct experience of police using force on them believed that police were more ready to use excessive force and that oral communication was not attempted first. This group also lacked confidence in the complaints system. Good communication was seen as essential to preventing situations from escalating to a point where force needed to be used. While officers felt that oral commands and ‘talkdown’ methods were always used initially to manage situations, people who had experienced force felt that officers often resorted to force too quickly.

Recent research supports the views provided to the public survey and suggests that ethnicity is associated with differences in what force is being used in use of force incidents. The research found that the likelihood of officers drawing equipment or weapons and using unarmed force (but not using the equipment or weapons) was higher when the person was identified as Black than when the person was identified as White, although people perceived by the officer as Black were less likely to be injured or hospitalised. And the 2019/20 data shows that officers were more than nine times as likely to have drawn Tasers (but not discharged them) during incidents involving someone they identified as Black than during incidents involving people perceived by officers to be White. Furthermore, Black people were eight times more likely to be ‘compliant handcuffed’ than White people, and over three times more likely to have a spit and bite guard used on them than White people. The reasons for this are unclear, but it could mean that force is used on Black people with less justification than on White people. The IOPC is currently carrying out a review of Taser complaints.

I didn’t say it was acceptable. I did say that looking at police stats out of context is misleading.

[cashead]

Yeah, there's a context alright.

[Son of Mathonwy]

So you believe there's a perfectly acceptable reason why black people are disproportionately more likely to experience compliant handcuffing, restraint tactics, tasers, etc., than white people?

The HMICFRS' own words

In a 2016 public survey conducted by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, concern among the respondents about how frequently the police use force was relatively low. But Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic respondents had less trust in the police’s ability to use force reasonably and were more concerned about the frequency with which officers use force. This was particularly the case for Black respondents. Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic people were more likely to report having experienced use of force in public spaces than in their homes, compared with White people. People who reported having direct experience of police using force on them believed that police were more ready to use excessive force and that oral communication was not attempted first. This group also lacked confidence in the complaints system. Good communication was seen as essential to preventing situations from escalating to a point where force needed to be used. While officers felt that oral commands and ‘talkdown’ methods were always used initially to manage situations, people who had experienced force felt that officers often resorted to force too quickly.

Recent research supports the views provided to the public survey and suggests that ethnicity is associated with differences in what force is being used in use of force incidents. The research found that the likelihood of officers drawing equipment or weapons and using unarmed force (but not using the equipment or weapons) was higher when the person was identified as Black than when the person was identified as White, although people perceived by the officer as Black were less likely to be injured or hospitalised. And the 2019/20 data shows that officers were more than nine times as likely to have drawn Tasers (but not discharged them) during incidents involving someone they identified as Black than during incidents involving people perceived by officers to be White. Furthermore, Black people were eight times more likely to be ‘compliant handcuffed’ than White people, and over three times more likely to have a spit and bite guard used on them than White people. The reasons for this are unclear, but it could mean that force is used on Black people with less justification than on White people. The IOPC is currently carrying out a review of Taser complaints.

I didn’t say it was acceptable. I did say that looking at police stats out of context is misleading.

As Cas says, the context is that little has improved since the Macpherson Report, which concluded that the Met (and other Police services) are institutionally racist.

In that context you don't give the police the benefit of the doubt. You have to assume that at least part of the disproportionate use of force is due to racial discrimination.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 1/4262.pdf

As the report says, (6.45) in relation to racial disparity in "stop and search figures": Whilst we acknowledge and recognise the complexity of this issue and in particular the other factors which can be prayed in aid to explain the disparities, such as demographic mix, school exclusions, unemployment, and recording procedures, there remains, in our judgment, a clear core conclusion of racist stereotyping.

The same point can be made for the "use of force" figures.

As the police have been unable to police themselves* in the 22 years since Macpherson, they clearly need better, independent regulation. The current system is clearly failing in London (and possibly beyond).


*ironic, but not without precedent.

[cashead]

^ Fucking bingo.


Seriously, why the fuck would anyone be grasping at straws and trying so hard to give the pigs any benefit of the doubt at this point?

[WaspInWales]

The police are the same as any other large institution. Mostly, there's plenty of hard working and honest coppers. But there are some awful ones who deserve to be rooted out and sacked, or criminally charged where appropriate. The problem is often that any bad apple tarnishes the whole organisation, which is exacerbated by senior management not wanting to admit to a problem because they know the perception that it will cause.

I used to have that sympathetic view towards the police, but I think a drop in their recruitment standards have allowed a large number of unsavoury people into positions that they are clearly unsuitable for. I think many police forces have issues with toxic masculinity, racism, extremism as well as a lack of professionalism and empathy towards victims of crime.

However, like many public services, they have been completely fucked over by this government, but I bet most of the thin blue line would vote Tory if an election was called tomorrow.