The Thin Blue Line

[Son of Mathonwy]

That’s part of the problem and the remit of the police seems to grow into areas of social care where it’s not their business. But they don’t help themselves either in some of their operational planning.

But clearly black children and men do less well than other ethnic groups in the UK. They do less well at school, on the workplace and they are more likely to have a run in with the police. The data provided by multiple sources shows that the police do arrest more black men and use force more often. But that’s not the case with other ethnic minorities. Asian men are more or less the same proportion as white men. Surely if the police were racist, there would be disparity there too.

And if schooling and the workplace is also not favouring black boys and men, then should we be declaring teachers as racist, all employers as racist and the nhs as racist as well apparently. The police are generally reactive to social problems and many social studies highlight the link between poverty and crime. If black people are more likely to be poor, and they are, then they are more likely to live on high crime areas.

So describing the pigs as racist is just lazy and misses the bugger picture. The police are just a convenient punchbag for certain groups who can’t be bothered to look at the problem closely enough.

"The pigs are racist" is indeed a lazy statement.

But "the police force is institutionally racist" is the truth.

It's not alone of course. Many parts of our society are instituationally racist too (eg our education system (not individual schools) is set up to benefit the wealthy, which means that black people, being generally poorer, will suffer worse outcomes).

But that doesn't give the police a free pass, they still need to fix their own problems. If we wait for the whole of society to be fixed before expecting the police to take action, nothing will ever be done.

The police have been fixing their problems for two decades. There shave been literally hundreds of initiatives to ensure officers are better trained. Perhaps if we addressed the wider societal problems (and not by accepting that black men are disadvantaged purely through racism, or that racism doesn’t play some part) then the police wouldn’t have so many confrontational incidents with the black community. The stats show that the problem is with a particular ethnic group and also that ethnic group has the perception that the police are anti them. Every time another black youth is arrested that’s reinforced, although does that mean the police just ignore crimes?
Perhaps time for a joined up departmental review on how to treat thisnpriblem, including community leadership but also at a local level. But that takes more effort than just calling the police racist.

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

[Banquo]

"The pigs are racist" is indeed a lazy statement.

But "the police force is institutionally racist" is the truth.

It's not alone of course. Many parts of our society are instituationally racist too (eg our education system (not individual schools) is set up to benefit the wealthy, which means that black people, being generally poorer, will suffer worse outcomes).

But that doesn't give the police a free pass, they still need to fix their own problems. If we wait for the whole of society to be fixed before expecting the police to take action, nothing will ever be done.

The police have been fixing their problems for two decades. There shave been literally hundreds of initiatives to ensure officers are better trained. Perhaps if we addressed the wider societal problems (and not by accepting that black men are disadvantaged purely through racism, or that racism doesn’t play some part) then the police wouldn’t have so many confrontational incidents with the black community. The stats show that the problem is with a particular ethnic group and also that ethnic group has the perception that the police are anti them. Every time another black youth is arrested that’s reinforced, although does that mean the police just ignore crimes?
Perhaps time for a joined up departmental review on how to treat thisnpriblem, including community leadership but also at a local level. But that takes more effort than just calling the police racist.

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

How do you measure 'success/improvement'? Genuine q.....

[Son of Mathonwy]

The police have been fixing their problems for two decades. There shave been literally hundreds of initiatives to ensure officers are better trained. Perhaps if we addressed the wider societal problems (and not by accepting that black men are disadvantaged purely through racism, or that racism doesn’t play some part) then the police wouldn’t have so many confrontational incidents with the black community. The stats show that the problem is with a particular ethnic group and also that ethnic group has the perception that the police are anti them. Every time another black youth is arrested that’s reinforced, although does that mean the police just ignore crimes?
Perhaps time for a joined up departmental review on how to treat thisnpriblem, including community leadership but also at a local level. But that takes more effort than just calling the police racist.

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

How do you measure 'success/improvement'? Genuine q.....

The opposite of this would be good:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rd-on-race

[Banquo]

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

How do you measure 'success/improvement'? Genuine q.....

The opposite of this would be good:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rd-on-race

So a positive review from the home affairs committee?

[Son of Mathonwy]

How do you measure 'success/improvement'? Genuine q.....

The opposite of this would be good:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rd-on-race

So a positive review from the home affairs committee?

That would be a start, but obviously what we really need is for the facts in the review to show improvement.

[Banquo]

The opposite of this would be good:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... rd-on-race

So a positive review from the home affairs committee?

That would be a start, but obviously what we really need is for the facts in the review to show improvement.

well yes, but it would be good to know what those facts are/would be, which was the original question!

[cashead]

Part of the issue is the disproportionately heavy-handed policing of black communities, where there is clear data that demonstrates this. Improving on those statistics is a good place to start. I don't understand why you find this to be such a difficult concept to grasp, if I'm being frankly honest.

[Banquo]

Part of the issue is the disproportionately heavy-handed policing of black communities, where there is clear data that demonstrates this. Improving on those statistics is a good place to start. I don't understand why you find this to be such a difficult concept to grasp, if I'm being frankly honest.

I'm not 'finding it a difficult concept', just asking a question in good faith-- but maybe being a bit lazy, as there is a decent analysis from a link in the posted article. Stop and search stats are an obvious issue to be addressed, as is recruitment.

[Son of Mathonwy]

So a positive review from the home affairs committee?

That would be a start, but obviously what we really need is for the facts in the review to show improvement.

well yes, but it would be good to know what those facts are/would be, which was the original question!

From what you said to Cas I think you have all you need from the article, right?

[Banquo]

That would be a start, but obviously what we really need is for the facts in the review to show improvement.

well yes, but it would be good to know what those facts are/would be, which was the original question!

From what you said to Cas I think you have all you need from the article, right?

yep, as I said, useful link in the article.

[Sandydragon]

"The pigs are racist" is indeed a lazy statement.

But "the police force is institutionally racist" is the truth.

It's not alone of course. Many parts of our society are instituationally racist too (eg our education system (not individual schools) is set up to benefit the wealthy, which means that black people, being generally poorer, will suffer worse outcomes).

But that doesn't give the police a free pass, they still need to fix their own problems. If we wait for the whole of society to be fixed before expecting the police to take action, nothing will ever be done.

The police have been fixing their problems for two decades. There shave been literally hundreds of initiatives to ensure officers are better trained. Perhaps if we addressed the wider societal problems (and not by accepting that black men are disadvantaged purely through racism, or that racism doesn’t play some part) then the police wouldn’t have so many confrontational incidents with the black community. The stats show that the problem is with a particular ethnic group and also that ethnic group has the perception that the police are anti them. Every time another black youth is arrested that’s reinforced, although does that mean the police just ignore crimes?
Perhaps time for a joined up departmental review on how to treat thisnpriblem, including community leadership but also at a local level. But that takes more effort than just calling the police racist.

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

The Police are independently regulated. IPCC often criticise individual officers and forces where they make mistakes and asa regulator is very wary of maintaining its independence.

We can see the outcomes of the MacPheraon regulation on police forces over the past decades. The police are very wary about how their actions will be perceived by minority communities, and have actually been criticised for being overly worried about this to the detriment of operational policing. Plus they monitor a range of targets aims at improving the racial balance in forces.


Recent research shows that BAME men are more likely to be arrested for drugs, robbery and weapons offences. That’s not to say that crimes if this nature by white people are being ignored, more that they are the types of crimes that are more frequent in areas with greater social deprivation and they are the sorts of crimes that the police will target because communities want them stopped. The rate of imprisonment for white and black men charged of drug offences is very similar.

What all this points to is that the police arrest people more frequently for certain crimes because they are highly detectable and they occur more where there is deprivation. Since black people are more likely to live in deprived areas, they are more likely to be arrested.

There is still a perception that the police are racist towards the black community by the black community which is taking a long time to break down. That causes problems in a range of areas , including recruitment. But as I’ve argued below, the black community tend to be more socially disadvantaged which is a key indicator for certain types of crime which the police can detect and respond to. Treat those problems and the police become less
Noticeable in the lives of young black men.

What this needs is a grown up conversation rather than this constant ‘all pigs are racist’ approach which gets thrown about with such ease.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The police have been fixing their problems for two decades. There shave been literally hundreds of initiatives to ensure officers are better trained. Perhaps if we addressed the wider societal problems (and not by accepting that black men are disadvantaged purely through racism, or that racism doesn’t play some part) then the police wouldn’t have so many confrontational incidents with the black community. The stats show that the problem is with a particular ethnic group and also that ethnic group has the perception that the police are anti them. Every time another black youth is arrested that’s reinforced, although does that mean the police just ignore crimes?
Perhaps time for a joined up departmental review on how to treat thisnpriblem, including community leadership but also at a local level. But that takes more effort than just calling the police racist.

But is there any sign of success from these initiatives you speak of? After 2 decades we should expect substantial improvement. Of course there are problems outside of the police's control but as Macpherson made clear, they are adding to the problem, the racist outcomes are amplified by the institutional racism in the force.

At what point would you say, okay you've have enough time, you don't know how or aren't willing to fix your problems, you need independent regulation. 22 years seems like more than enough time to me. How long would be enough for you?

Do you think the police should be independently regulated?

The Police are independently regulated. IPCC often criticise individual officers and forces where they make mistakes and asa regulator is very wary of maintaining its independence.

We can see the outcomes of the MacPheraon regulation on police forces over the past decades. The police are very wary about how their actions will be perceived by minority communities, and have actually been criticised for being overly worried about this to the detriment of operational policing. Plus they monitor a range of targets aims at improving the racial balance in forces.


Recent research shows that BAME men are more likely to be arrested for drugs, robbery and weapons offences. That’s not to say that crimes if this nature by white people are being ignored, more that they are the types of crimes that are more frequent in areas with greater social deprivation and they are the sorts of crimes that the police will target because communities want them stopped. The rate of imprisonment for white and black men charged of drug offences is very similar.

What all this points to is that the police arrest people more frequently for certain crimes because they are highly detectable and they occur more where there is deprivation. Since black people are more likely to live in deprived areas, they are more likely to be arrested.

There is still a perception that the police are racist towards the black community by the black community which is taking a long time to break down. That causes problems in a range of areas , including recruitment. But as I’ve argued below, the black community tend to be more socially disadvantaged which is a key indicator for certain types of crime which the police can detect and respond to. Treat those problems and the police become less
Noticeable in the lives of young black men.

What this needs is a grown up conversation rather than this constant ‘all pigs are racist’ approach which gets thrown about with such ease.

Fair point on the IPCC (although it's the IOPC these days, apparently). I should have said independent regulation with teeth.

I can only say that if you can't bring yourself to criticise the police on this (just a little bit) - after 22 years - I can't imagine what it would take.

[Sandydragon]

I’m not going to quote SOM as it’s a long post. I take your point about there being stuff to criticise. There are always individual officers who fall short and any large organisation isn’t perfect. I’m definitely not suggesting the police are perfect. But I do take issue with them being singled out for the charge of institutional racism when they have to sweep up the problems of society. They are too easy a target.

Technically the elected police commissioners should be holding their forces to account as well. But we all know that’s a joke election. Perhaps if people turned out to vote properly then sensible candidates could properly hold the chief Constable accountable.

[morepork]

How long do they need to "sort themselves out"? If the Po-lice are a loose assemblage of individuals, how exactly do they manage to time and time again cover up the behaviour of many within their ranks under the umbrella of a protected organisation? I truly do not understand any argument claiming that organisation is not inherently fucked up.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I’m not going to quote SOM as it’s a long post. I take your point about there being stuff to criticise. There are always individual officers who fall short and any large organisation isn’t perfect. I’m definitely not suggesting the police are perfect. But I do take issue with them being singled out for the charge of institutional racism when they have to sweep up the problems of society. They are too easy a target.

Technically the elected police commissioners should be holding their forces to account as well. But we all know that’s a joke election. Perhaps if people turned out to vote properly then sensible candidates could properly hold the chief Constable accountable.

Or indeed if the Met's commissioner was elected at all.

[cashead]

they have to sweep up the problems of society.

Is that what you call the disproportionate use of force against black people?

[cashead]

How long do they need to "sort themselves out"? If the Po-lice are a loose assemblage of individuals, how exactly do they manage to time and time again cover up the behaviour of many within their ranks under the umbrella of a protected organisation? I truly do not understand any argument claiming that organisation is not inherently fucked up.

It's not like the pigs were told about these institutional issues about 3 days ago. When was the Macpherson report published again?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yet more about the Met & corruption:

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... r-purpose/

[kk67]

There were a couple of programs about celebrities who were caught under operation Yewtree last night. All the familiar faces, Glitter, Talbot, Harris and Savile but not a mention anywhere about the hundreds of police officers, prison officers and faith leaders who were also caught consuming child pornography. The 'establishment' have a reason for not reporting these cases and it's the same justification for all of them, and it goes something like this:
'Don't report abuses in the prison service/police force/organised religion as it undermines the public's confidence'.
These cases continue to be prosecuted in the courts but the only place you will see them being reported is in the local press.

If reform is to come in the police force then it has to start in recruitment and training. It's almost impossible to escape the feeling that something is going very wrong at Hendon.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Unfortunately Sandydragon shows exactly why this is an unending clusterfuck. He's very obviously a decent person. But he doesn't give enough of a shit about the people in the police who are not. There's always an excuse. There's always a reason. To people like him it doesn't matter whether there is a report showing that the police are (still) institutionally racist, the bigger issue must be societal. It doesn't matter if the research shows that black people are disproportionately stopped, that must be because they are disproportionately criminal - the gloss that it's because of societal reasons isn't the defence that Sandy thinks it is.

Until the decent people in the police stop thinking that the way of protecting the institution is to sweep obvious wrongdoing and structural problems under the carpet this will go on. Until police officers are prepared to challenge each other and say "Wait, why are you checking the numberplate of that nice car? Is it just because the driver is black?" and be backed by their management for doing so then this will go on. Until there is a genuine penalty for stopping kids randomly then this will go on. Until we can do better than a Met Police Commissioner actively obstructing a corruption investigation then this will go on. It's fucking frustrating as a person who has spent most of their life as a prosecutor.

[Sandydragon]

Unfortunately Sandydragon shows exactly why this is an unending clusterfuck. He's very obviously a decent person. But he doesn't give enough of a shit about the people in the police who are not. There's always an excuse. There's always a reason. To people like him it doesn't matter whether there is a report showing that the police are (still) institutionally racist, the bigger issue must be societal. It doesn't matter if the research shows that black people are disproportionately stopped, that must be because they are disproportionately criminal - the gloss that it's because of societal reasons isn't the defence that Sandy thinks it is.

Until the decent people in the police stop thinking that the way of protecting the institution is to sweep obvious wrongdoing and structural problems under the carpet this will go on. Until police officers are prepared to challenge each other and say "Wait, why are you checking the numberplate of that nice car? Is it just because the driver is black?" and be backed by their management for doing so then this will go on. Until there is a genuine penalty for stopping kids randomly then this will go on. Until we can do better than a Met Police Commissioner actively obstructing a corruption investigation then this will go on. It's fucking frustrating as a person who has spent most of their life as a prosecutor.

And yet you ignore evidence of the police not investigating non white suspects due to the potential to be seen to be racist. And has it occurred to you that most of the residents in high crime areas want the police to reduce crime levels? Is there a correlation between high crime areas, very high levels of poverty and ethnicity? Often yes there is. That means that vehicle stops and stop and search will be disproportionate. You wouldn’t do stop and search in area with no crime. Where would be the justification? Have you spent any time in sink estates recently?

Meanwhile smug lawyers moan about the police whilst wringing their hands at the levels of knife violence where black children are murdered almost daily and the police can’t be effective in responding due to fears of being called out as racist. It would almost be worthy of a monty python sketch if it weren’t actually serious.

I’ll repeat myself for the hard of understanding. Poverty leads to crime. Police respond to crime. If a poor area is predominantly ethnic then that will reflect in the statistics.

Here you go some academic research following vehicle stops over a seven year period which suggest that racial profiling is rare.

https://theconversation.com/amp/we-spen ... und-149563

Fancy commenting on the accusation that black suspects are dealt with more harshly by the courts?

[morepork]

Christ on a bike...

[Mellsblue]

Christ on a bike...

The copper’s reaction would probably depend on whether they believed in white Christ, brown Christ or no Christ…. and whether the bike had been reported as stolen.

[Sandydragon]

Christ on a bike...

So you don’t think that any of that is true? Whatever. I’m guessing my understanding of crime and poverty in this country might be a bit closer than yours.

[morepork]

Po-lice are under reporting stop and search for fear of perceived racism, but black men are still disproportionately over represented in stop and search statistics that are available.

That's quite the rebuttal.